.50 cal muzzleloader bullet to bore vs sabot

[ENCORE]

Couldn’t disagree more. And I have been a dedicated muzzy hunter for 35 years.

For guys new to muzzy hunting and the vast majority of average hunters (not paper punchers) sabots offer more advantages: cheaper wider range of bullet choices, sabots seal the bore and keep the bullet on the charge, simpler, often flatter trajectory, no sizing and the issues with sizing. Waiting a few minutes for the bore to cool during the summer is no big deal - use a cooling rod if you’d like and you’ll be shooting about as quickly as a bullet to bore shooter.

You must work for MMP or Harvester? LOL

Well lets see, 35yrs huh? Its been 49yrs for me. I started back in "73". I've shot everything from Huntsman, side hammers, modern inlines and SML. When I shoot competition, I shoot Master Class. I'm no rookie.

That said, you want a newbie to use cooling rods in the summer, purchase a long enough cooler, purchase the dry ice and still have to wait, then clean the moisture/condensation out of his barrel? Why is it more and more hunters and "paper punchers" are going sabotless? Why is it that ANY muzzleloader competition is won by bullets being shot bullet to bore? Why is it that when accuracy counts, sabots are never used?

Read the last paragraph in post #39 again please.

The bullets normally used shooting bullet to bore are higher quality bullets than pre-packaged bullets. I can assure you, sized properly a bullet will not move off the charge. There's no such thing as flatter trajectory when using a sabot. For goodness sake, any seasoned shooter knows its the weakest link.
Learning to size bullets is as easy as tying your shoe laces.
Also........... sizing your own bullets can give you ....... some ...... control over velocity. With a sabot, well your stuck with what it might give you one minute or change the next. Heat is the enemy of sabots and everyone should know that.

Why would anyone want to spend over 90 minutes standing around in the summer waiting for a barrel to cool, just to shoot 10 rounds accurately?

 

[ElDiablito]

Target shooting is not hunting brother. Sorry, still couldn’t disagree more. You haven’t disputed any of my points above. Sabots work just dandy for me shooting in the summer in Las Vegas - that should tell you something. (And you obviously don’t know much about cooling rods by your description of them.)

 

[Green Bullet]

Hornady 250 gr SSTs worked for me out to 300 on my TC Omega. Lots of kills on my smoke pole. They make better nowadays but she has sentimental value.

 

[ENCORE]

Target shooting is not hunting brother. Sorry, still couldn’t disagree more. You haven’t disputed any of my points above. Sabots work just dandy for me shooting in the summer in Las Vegas - that should tell you something. (And you obviously don’t know much about cooling rods by your description of them.)

Well we're at a complete disagreement then. As I pointed out once before, go back and read that last paragraph. Keep on shooting the weakest link while the rest learn how to get more from their rifles.

Target shooting and hunting.................. Yup, there's a difference but, learning how to properly place a shot accurately just helps in hunting. With over 400 whitetails in both the U.S. and Canada, I'd say I pretty much know the difference.

I know about cooling rods and they're a pain in the ask. Period. Its OLD SCHOOL when people didn't know what has been learned. I don't know a single shooter anymore that uses cooling rods. Its one more NEEDLESS method and more junk to haul to the range.
Its just one more reason why more and more shooters/hunters are going bullet to bore.

If the weakest link in modern muzzleloading works for you, keep it up. However, there are others that may want to learn a better way.................................

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[ElDiablito]

Well we're at a complete disagreement then. As I pointed out once before, go back and read that last paragraph. Keep on shooting the weakest link while the rest learn how to get more from their rifles.

Target shooting and hunting.................. Yup, there's a difference but, learning how to properly place a shot accurately just helps in hunting. With over 400 whitetails in both the U.S. and Canada, I'd say I pretty much know the difference.

I know about cooling rods and they're a pain in the ask. Period. Its OLD SCHOOL when people didn't know what has been learned. I don't know a single shooter anymore that uses cooling rods. Its one more NEEDLESS method and more junk to haul to the range.
Its just one more reason why more and more shooters/hunters are going bullet to bore.

If the weakest link in modern muzzleloading works for you, keep it up. However, there are others that may want to learn a better way.................................

Happy Thanksgiving.

You’ve gotten so far down the “1000 yard target shooting with a multi-thousand dollar custom target rifle” road that you’ve totally lost your perspective, George.

Read the title of this thread again and the OPs post: New to muzzleloading, .50 Knight, wanting to develop a load for deer and antelope that’s good to 250 yards. That screams sabot all day long.

For bullet-to-bore, in a .50 caliber rifle a guy has very few good options in thin-jacketed made-for-the-task bullets. Fury is, to my knowledge, the only real choice (Furys are offered in about six .50 options) unless you want to get into experimentation with conventional thinner jacketed bullets. And there your choices are also quite limited. Just to get started a guy would want a .50 adjustable sizing die and a hand press - a $200 combined investment. If you like bullet to bore shooting you’ll likely decide to ditch the .50 and buy or build a .45 so you will have ultimately wasted your money on the .50 sizing die.

“Shoot the .50 Fury Universals and you don’t need a sizing die,” you may say. You’re really just shooting a full bore conical like a Bore Driver, BOR Lock, Powerbelt or Thor in that case and not gaining anything. If I wanted a full bore conical like that I’d shoot a Thor or maybe try a Hornady Bore Driver ELD-X.

The bullets made for bullet to bore shooting are comparatively very expensive - ranging from about $1.40-$2.40 per bullet (in .45 and .50 options) as compared to perhaps .30-.50+ each for commercial .45 bullets. Sabots offer you the versatility to shoot literally hundreds of different .45 ish caliber jacketed bullets from say 185 grains to 400 grains in weight. Way more choices!

I love bullet to bore shooting in a smokeless .45 custom build. It’s the way to go for long range shooting. Although there are some drawbacks. This is still an emerging and somewhat experimental field. In 5-10 years perhaps it will be the way to go for many guys. It’s not right now.

“Weakest link?” - I’ve never been entirely sure what you and others are really saying when you throw that phrase around. Aside from paying some attention to barrel heating in the summer at the range - sabots and modern jacketed bullets have no downsides.

“But high BC bullet to bore custom bullets (Pittman,Parker, Arrowhead) are way more accurate,” you will say. Maybe. But that’s a moot point at the ranges the OP and the other 95% of muzzy hunters are shooting game. One to two moa accuracy is more than adequate for ranges under 300 yards on deer-sized game.

Sabot shooting is cheaper, simpler for nearly every hunter, more than adequate for shooting to 250-300 yards, and offers exponentially more choice in bullet type and weight.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not a Michigan whitetail hunter - but…I’ve personally taken hundreds of animals ranging from pigs to caribou to whitetails to moose to sheep to impala to Kudu to duikers to bears all over the country and world with saboted bullets from sea level to 12k, in hot, cold, snow and rain, while backpacking, atv and truck hunting. They work wonderfully.

There’s zero good reason in 2022 for the average inline muzzy hunter to shoot full-bore (unless required to) or bullet to bore.

Happy Thanksgiving, brother!

 

[ENCORE]

You’ve gotten so far down the “1000 yard target shooting with a multi-thousand dollar custom target rifle” road that you’ve totally lost your perspective, George..............................

Far from being correct.

If you like bullet to bore shooting you’ll likely decide to ditch the .50 and buy or build a .45 so you will have ultimately wasted your money on the .50 sizing die..................

“Shoot the .50 Fury Universals and you don’t need a sizing die,” you may say. You’re really just shooting a full bore conical like a Bore Driver, BOR Lock, Powerbelt or Thor in that case and not gaining anything. If I wanted a full bore conical like that I’d shoot a Thor or maybe try a Hornady Bore Driver ELD-X..............

Its why those other bullets were created, to eliminate the sabot SMH.

I love bullet to bore shooting in a smokeless .45 custom build. It’s the way to go for long range shooting. Although there are some drawbacks. This is still an emerging and somewhat experimental field. In 5-10 years perhaps it will be the way to go for many guys. It’s not right now.
“Weakest link?” - I’ve never been entirely sure what you and others are really saying when you throw that phrase around. Aside from paying some attention to barrel heating in the summer at the range - sabots and modern jacketed bullets have no downsides.

Experimental? Good grief, its been going on for years if not over a decade. The most accurate muzzleloader shooters, who shoot from 50yds to 500yds, ALL shoot bullet to bore and have been doing so for years. Its NOT experimental. You're sounding more and more like you own stock in MMP or Harvester?

"Weakest Link"............ Well by your statement alone, others are saying the same identical thing. So evidently I'm not the only person that says that. Notice how many on the other site are shooting BTB???

“But high BC bullet to bore custom bullets (Pittman,Parker, Arrowhead) are way more accurate,” you will say. Maybe. But that’s a moot point at the ranges the OP and the other 95% of muzzy hunters are shooting game. One to two moa accuracy is more than adequate for ranges under 300 yards on deer-sized game.

6" at 300yds can be a complete miss or a wounded animal.

There’s zero good reason in 2022 for the average inline muzzy hunter to shoot full-bore (unless required to) or bullet to bore.

The added quotes loaded different but, read my highlighted and italic post below. What seems to be your problem with that??

I'm new to muzzleloading and just got a .50 cal knight ultralight. I am getting ready to work up a load for it and I am wondering if I would be better off to go with a Thor bullet, bullet to bore or a parker ballistic extreme with a sabot? I'm hoping to to get a range of 250 yards to hunt deer and amtelope. As I understand a lot of people are moving away from sabots and going toward bullet to bore. Any thought and advice would be appreciated.

Ok, here's the OP's original post above. Yes, he says he's new to muzzleloading but, he's also asking about going bullet to bore. So even the OP has some understanding of "a lot of people....".
He asked for advice which he has gotten. You seem to want to argue over the advice I gave?
So if the OP understands that a lot of people are getting away from sabots, as he stated in his first post, why would you be so offended of bullet to bore????

You have a dandy rifle, one that is at least has a good bore.

Here's an old time muzzleloader's advice........ learn to go bullet to bore.

Sabots are easy and yet other times a pain in the foot. Why buy 4 or 5 different packages of sabots to find out which one might work with a specific bullet of your choice?
I'm not saying that sabots can't shoot a bullet well. I'm saying bullet to bore is better and its not that hard to learn. Yes, it takes a sizer in some cases, in others, depending on the bullet need zero sizing.

If you just plan on shooting the rifle a couple times before a season opens then hunt, sabots are fine. However, if you plan on shooting more and during the summer, sabots and heat do not mix. Shooting one round and having to wait 10min+ for the barrel to cool is............... well not cool. It gets old REAL quick. You end up spending more time waiting for the barrel to cool than shooting.

Here's an example of sabot and heat........... See the ripples in the sabot?

View attachment 478320

Personally, I think this post has run its course. The OP didn't ask his question for advice to have others want to argue the use of bullet to bore instead of using sabots.

Let him decide what may work best for him.

We'll just have to agree to disagree and let it go......................................................
Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[fightthenoise]

I’m relatively new to ML, especially compared to you guys but I’m not mentally handicapped and I doubt OP is either. We don’t need “cheap and easy” or to have our hands held. I went bullet to bore straight out of the gate with my first ML and won’t look back. Encore was instrumental in that decision.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

I’m relatively new to ML, especially compared to you guys but I’m not mentally handicapped and I doubt OP is either. We don’t need “cheap and easy” or to have our hands held. I went bullet to bore straight out of the gate with my first ML and won’t look back. Encore was instrumental in that decision.

I initially started bullet to bore with a CVA for use in Colo. Worked pretty dang well. I experimented with sabots on some NM tags and honestly they weren’t any better or easier than the bullet to bore options I used in Colo (FPB I believe). Since I’ve gonna full blown custom with an arrowhead and couldn’t be happier, however, those are spendy and not for everyone. Just the experience of relatively new practical muz hunter, not a long range target shooter. Picked lots of good info from ENCORE’s posts though…..

 

[ElDiablito]

The OP didn't ask his question for advice to have others want to argue the use of bullet to bore instead of using sabots.

Huh? He’s asking for advice on what to shoot. Of course he’s asking for opinions on which route to go and why…

 

[realunlucky]

Some really entrenched opinions on this thread. Remember to treat other members with respect even when thier opinions differ from your own

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[ElDiablito]

I think a lot of guys reading this are confusing terms. Bullet-to-bore or Land-rider is commonly used to refer to custom sized (smooth or full-formed) thin-jacketed bullets. They are sized to fit precisely in a particular rifles bore and soft enough to obturate quickly. This is different from skirted or self-sealing bullets like Powerbelts, FPBs, Thors, Bore Drivers and BOR Locks. Most guys would refer to these as full-bore conicals.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

I think a lot of guys reading this are confusing terms. Bullet-to-bore or Land-rider is commonly used to refer to custom sized (smooth or full-formed) thin-jacketed bullets. They are sized to fit precisely in a particular rifles bore and soft enough to obturate quickly. This is different from skirted or self-sealing bullets like Powerbelts, FPBs, Thors, Bore Drivers and BOR Locks. Most guys would refer to these as full-bore conicals.

That’s a great point of clarification, thanks. As stated my experience is limited, my focus is hunting not shooting. For me the full-bore conical (FPB) shot as good or better than the sabots in my CVA rifle. Obviously the bullet to bore was even better in the arrowhead but with an exponentially higher cost. All bullets preformed exceptionally well on game, one shot kills, no tracking. I will say I intentionally avoided powerbelts after hearing lots of horror stories. Great discussion lots of good options out there.

 

[ENCORE]

The Arrowhead XLD bullets are designed with a .021" jacket. That is far from thin like many of the .015" thick jackets. I have both 275gr and 300gr Accumax bullets that have .015" jackets.

Jackets do not have to be thin to shoot smooth formed (bullet to bore, land riders, etc.) Its a total myth if one presents that as reality.

Examples of this would certainly show up in LONG RANGE shooting.

Well now I'll go to target shooting. How about 1,000yds?
Those of us who shoot long range, ALL shoot bullets with thick jackets. The XLX at .021" and the Parker MH at .028" thick jackets. Using a veggie wad, ALL bullets obturated fully and were accurate to 1,000yds.

NOTE:..................... THE PROPELLANT USED WAS BH209.......... BECAUSE OF THE RULES, THE MAXIMUM CHARGE THAT COULD BE USED WAS 120GRS ............. VOLUME. JUST LIKE ANY MODERN INLINE RIFLE IS CAPABLE OF TODAY.

One does not have to shoot thin jacketed bullets bullet to bore, land riders, smooth formed. Its a myth.

 

[ElDiablito]

The Arrowhead XLD bullets are designed with a .021" jacket. That is far from thin like many of the .015" thick jackets. I have both 275gr and 300gr Accumax bullets that have .015" jackets.

Jackets do not have to be thin to shoot smooth formed (bullet to bore, land riders, etc.) Its a total myth if one presents that as reality.

Examples of this would certainly show up in LONG RANGE shooting.

Well now I'll go to target shooting. How about 1,000yds?
Those of us who shoot long range, ALL shoot bullets with thick jackets. The XLX at .021" and the Parker MH at .028" thick jackets. Using a veggie wad, ALL bullets obturated fully and were accurate to 1,000yds.

NOTE:..................... THE PROPELLANT USED WAS BH209.......... BECAUSE OF THE RULES, THE MAXIMUM CHARGE THAT COULD BE USED WAS 120GRS ............. VOLUME. JUST LIKE ANY MODERN INLINE RIFLE IS CAPABLE OF TODAY.

One does not have to shoot thin jacketed bullets bullet to bore, land riders, smooth formed. Its a myth.

Well, now we are going a bit off topic, but to set the record straight.

Myth?

Very commonly used handgun bullets used in muzzy hunting with sabots, like the 250gr SST Flex Tip and 250gr and 300gr Shockwaves (which are of very similar construction) have a base thickness of .050 and sidewall of .035 just below the ojive.

The 240gr .452 XTP mag has a base thickness of .050 and a sidewall of .040 (300gr version is of the same construction).

To me, these sound considerably thicker than .015 and .021 jackets. So I’d call our bullet to bore bullets thin. “Thinner” if you prefer.

https://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/1735?page=1

 

[ENCORE]

Well, now we are going a bit off topic, but to set the record straight.

Myth?

Very commonly used handgun bullets used in muzzy hunting with sabots, like the 250gr SST Flex Tip and 250gr and 300gr Shockwaves (which are of very similar construction) have a base thickness of .050 and sidewall of .035 just below the ojive.

The 240gr .452 XTP mag has a base thickness of .050 and a sidewall of .040 (300gr version is of the same construction).

To me, these sound considerably thicker than .015 and .021 jackets. So I’d call our bullet to bore bullets thin. “Thinner” if you prefer.

https://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/1735?page=1

Why on earth do you continue to want to debate, when you're not even paying attention???????

Myth? What did I say? I said that you don't need thin jacketed bullets to shoot bullet to bore or what ever you'd prefer to call it. To think so is the MYTH. They're even shooting Barnes MZ bullets, bullet to bore, with BH209. Where's the jacket on a Barnes?????

PROVE ME WRONG!

I'll repeat it so maybe you'll absorb it........... YOU DO NOT NEED THIN JACKETED BULLETS TO SHOOT BULLET TO BORE.

Please.................. stop trying to search and find some kind of example to try and prove you're right and I'm wrong. Let it go.

Others have said they shoot bullet to bore and wouldn't go back to sabots. How come you're not debating with them?

YOU'RE OBSESSED WITH BEING RIGHT. SO MUCH SO, THAT YOU STARTED A POLL OVER ON ANOTHER SITE TO TRY AND PROVE YOU'RE RIGHT. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

MODS......... I've asked him politely to let this go. He's getting carried away....................

 

[ElDiablito]

Forums like this are for discussing things, offering opinions and presenting evidence. That’s what is going on here. Calm down bro. If you’re upset, don’t read or comment.

 

[ENCORE]

Forums like this are for discussing things, offering opinions and presenting evidence. That’s what is going on here. Calm down bro. If you’re upset, don’t read or comment.

l am fully calm. I've been at this game for so long, I know what I'm talking about.

As I said, you're just to obsessed with this sabot issue. You started that post over on MM, where there's 18,000+ members, hoping to prove that you're right. As I asked, what's wrong with you?

And if forums like this are for discussing things and offering opinions and evidence, why is it your intent to argue/debate, AND........... carry it over to another site ??

You have in no way proven that using sabots, bullets shoot better than going bullet to bore. Prove that wrong.

It pays to pay attention to those who are shooting 2,000+ rounds a year, especially those who shoot for EXTREME accuracy, which by the way, should be how everyone hunts. When every competitor shooting modern inline rifles is shooting bullet to bore, there's a reason. Learn from that. Prove that wrong.

There hasn't been a bullet shot that has won any major competition that has a skirt or sabot, and won a match anywhere since 2015. Prove that wrong.

These are facts and evidence.

Now as I asked before.......... how about dropping this issue or do you need the last post?
The OP doesn't need it.

 

[Durran87]

No sabots allowed for CO elk. I really like the Barnes TEZ sabots, but I also want to hunt elk so trying out Thor and Federal Trophy Copper. Out of my CVA they all shoot pretty close to the same—tight groups at 100 yards!

 

[ole hunter]

I agree shoot the bullet you find that preforms best for you . I shoot a bullet that has proven to my group of Elk hunters that works good for us we do have some prep that needs to be done to bullet before shooting it [ resize it] thats not a problem enjoy my ML stuff.

 

[Rrobason]

I toss factory sabots and use the harvester crush rib sabots

Primary use Barnes 250gr tmz and 250 hornady ftx

The hornady ftx are just loose bullets I buy in boxes or 50

Barnes are sold as ml bullets, and like I said, toss the factory sabots

Even when I was using the 250gr Shockwave, I tossed the factory sabots

How do the Hornady ftx preform? I have though about doing the same thing… seems like an inexpensive route for a quality setup.