38 special, 357 magnum

[TheGDog]

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Flip side is no matter what, there are exceptions to the rule & regardless your choice of weapon or IQ you can still get your a$$ handed to you

I don't care who you are.. if you've done enough real livin' in this world? You know this statement above is way True!

 

[Anschutz]

Whatever you get, train with it like your life depends on it. I've carried a G17 and Smith 627. I have a Ruger 1911 10mm but I'm not 100% confident in its function yet. The 627 and Glock I've shot in USPSA. The Glock stays at home these days because I've trained to the point that I can draw and put 8 full house loads in the A zone at 10 yards in under four seconds. However, the only encounter I've had with animals and pistols are grouse while hunting (Better than freeze dried) and two deer hit by cars.

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[TheGDog]

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However, the only encounter I've had with animals and pistols are grouse while hunting (Better than freeze dried) and two deer hit by cars.

Had to do that once with the little Sig P238. Back of the head. Poor young 2x2 had this open gash on the side of his hide. Wasn't getting up. His eyes had that wide-open out-of-it look. The mouth open panting in shock.

Ugh... and then while I was pulled over on side of the road, getting out the weapon from the locked case.... some cars coming past oddly slowed to a stop, and then tried to proceed by, I'd have presumed cautiously, but no! This moron in a compact car oddly was giving too wide of a berth to my vehicle, which was completely off the asphalt... and this yahoo goes and freaking partially runs over the damn things extended leg! Ugh.. that sound!!! I remember being real upset that this bast@rd would be that stupid.

He gets a burst of adrenalin and limps over to the tall grass on side of road then flops back over on side again.

Apparently one of the nearby rich-people ranch-style homes was having a wedding reception or something. This guy who was driving a "Party Bus" van had stopped on the other side of the road with his bus/van and turned on his hazards so somebody wouldn't come flying down the road and potentially hit him again, possibly causing an accident and injuring folks as well.

It's always a somber thing when you have to be the guy to do the coup de grace.

 

[Anschutz]

It's always a somber thing when you have to be the guy to do the coup de grace.

Yep, first one was hit by another car not present. Deer were out and I was trying to get a good picture of one on my drive. Saw him bedded and went to take a picture. Noticed he was down like a scorned dog and traded the camera for 9mm.

Second my wife hit on our way to ski. Hit it hard enough only to crack the plastic trim on the grille of her Cherokee but the deer was flailing in the road unable to get up. Luckily I was able to drag it to the side of the road and finish the task.

Those grouse on the other hand were tasty after bear loads were swapped for wadcutters.

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[Top Dog]

Basically all of the above advise/experience is excellent. But I guess the bottom line for selection would be what fits you best? What potential hazards in your area exist?

Some folks feel perfectly at ease packing a 22 magnum and many old time LEOs (such as me) swear by the ever present snubbies.

However,when I am down in GA on a quail hunt,my handgun of choice for "buzzworms" is the Bond Arms Derringer 410 3 inch.

Up in Maine,I switch over to a Ruger SP-101 357 3 inch but for the most part,it is the 38 snubby which right now is in my back pocket in a Bob Mika pocket holster.

Top Dog

 

[FLATHEAD]

Had to do that once with the little Sig P238. Back of the head. Poor young 2x2 had this open gash on the side of his hide. Wasn't getting up. His eyes had that wide-open out-of-it look. The mouth open panting in shock.

Ugh... and then while I was pulled over on side of the road, getting out the weapon from the locked case.... some cars coming past oddly slowed to a stop, and then tried to proceed by, I'd have presumed cautiously, but no! This moron in a compact car oddly was giving too wide of a berth to my vehicle, which was completely off the asphalt... and this yahoo goes and freaking partially runs over the damn things extended leg! Ugh.. that sound!!! I remember being real upset that this bast@rd would be that stupid.

He gets a burst of adrenalin and limps over to the tall grass on side of road then flops back over on side again.

Apparently one of the nearby rich-people ranch-style homes was having a wedding reception or something. This guy who was driving a "Party Bus" van had stopped on the other side of the road with his bus/van and turned on his hazards so somebody wouldn't come flying down the road and potentially hit him again, possibly causing an accident and injuring folks as well.

It's always a somber thing when you have to be the guy to do the coup de grace.

Had a similar situation happen, got off of 3rd shift, headed home.
See some flashing lights up ahead and something in the road.
A monster of a buck laying dead in the road, blood steaming up on that cold morning.
I pull over and put my flashers on, thinking I'm gonna pull this thing out of the road
before somebody hits it and gets hurt.
Well, before I could get out of the truck some fool come didnt see the 2 vehicles
parked on the side of the road with their flashers on, and the 200lbs of meat laying in the middle. Appeared to never slow down, ran slam over that deer, antlers went flying and
the whole shebang, car and deer skidded over into the ditch.
I got back in my truck and waved at that idiot and drove home.

 

[Top Dog]

Flathead,
Good thing that "motorist" did not hit you as well!!!!

Sometimes,if road kill are not too badly mangled,the meat is donated to local soup kitchens and does not go to waste.

Top Dog

 

[ptmn]

For a woods gun, a stainless revolver is nice, but blue or parkerized is fine if you keep it oiled. A 4" barrel is pretty versatile. It has enough length for both velocity and a reasonable length sighting plain for accurate shooting, and it is also short enough for reasonable carry weight and a fast draw. If you plan on keeping it it a hip holster, you will find a 6" bbl draw is slower than a 4" bbl draw. Chest rigs will negate some of the speed advantages of the shorter 4" bbl

As for caliber, like others mentioned, get a 357 so you have the option of shooting both 38 and 357.

As to a more powerful caliber like 44 mag in Griz country, you also need to consider how much experience you have with heavy recoiling pistols. While a 44 is much more effective than a 357, you need to be able to hit a CNS vital to stop dangerous game. A miss or a bad shot with a powerful 44 mag, 454, 50 is going to be less effective than a good hit with a lesser powered 357.

Carry the most powerful caliber that you can effectively shoot. On the lines of 357/38, you can do something similar with getting a 44 mag and training with 44 special and work up to shooting 44 mag.

Then again, a hot 44 special, while not a 44 magnum, is still a pretty good round for defense against both 2 legged and 4 legged creatures.

If you like autos, a 10mm Glock is an option. Recoil is stout, but not excessive and the finish on the Glock is pretty durable in wet or dirty conditions. On top of that, they are relatively inexpensive compared to a quality revolver.

 

[FLATHEAD]

The Glock 10mm everybody raves about is really nothing more
than a semi auto .357.

 

[TheGDog]

The Glock 10mm everybody raves about is really nothing more
than a semi auto .357.

Pretty much. But, I seem to recall in all the research I did before I bought my Glock 29, that a juiced-up 10mm round has a lil more ft-lbs than a juiced-up .357. More like a .41 Magnum round. Which is a small jump up from a .357

 

[FLATHEAD]

Pretty much. But, I seem to recall in all the research I did before I bought my Glock 29, that a juiced-up 10mm round has a lil more ft-lbs than a juiced-up .357. More like a .41 Magnum round. Which is a small jump up from a .357

Given the comparable bore size that is probably a better comparison.

 

[reloader41]

Ruger Alaskan 3 inch 454 Casull and lots of practice

 

[TheGDog]

Ruger Alaskan 3 inch 454 Casull and lots of practice

Got any screen-grabs off video of the pic of the muzzle-blast out of that 3" barrel with a .454 Casull barkin' out of it? But that'd be impressive!

 

[reloader41]

Hey, I didn’t say I was crazy enough to own one!!!!!

 

[Shraggs]

A little late to a great thread.

Someone asked, but did not catch where your going in the backcountry as predator concerns vary accordingly.

I have 3 choices depending on where. And, I’m a weight Winnie so if I can reduce weight it’s important to me. A 50 oz gun is a lot.

If no grizzly, than s&w 38 spl air lite with exposed hammer shooting +p Buffalo bore 110 grain semi wad cutter hard cast. 12 oz. pretty potent load I might say. Wolves coyotes black bear and lions I’m ok with this combo. I’ve practiced and can shoot it fast in double action or single due to minimal recoil.

If I’m Alaska where grizzly is real, which I haven’t but still dreaming I will - s&w 629 44 mag 4”. I’m not proficient ie can not get three rounds off in a couple of seconds that group well. 2nd and 3rd are high and right.

Been said on your thread, practice. I did the math on how many rounds I’d take me train thru and I’m very confident I would. But it was less money to by the glock 20 sf in 10 mm.

That is what I take in the lower 48 where grizzly is with two loads both by Underwood. 145 penetrator and 200 grain hardcast. Gun is stock. Man always hated glocks until this gun. Very manageable for it’s potency. It did not take long to rapid fire relative to recoil 10 rounds at 10 yards under 10 seconds with good groups. My next level is to find a way to safely shoot at targets moving to me. I believe static training is not representative of a big bear attack.

My simple opinions, but thought I would share my thinking why one gun isn’t my ideal. But if it was one for all situations no doubt the 10mm. Several other credible makers now too.

 

[TheGDog]

I'm with you on the shaving weight scenario dictating which backup weapon.

For the places with no bears, I just bring the Sig P238 lil .380acp mini 911. Love that little thing! And with the LeHigh Xtreme Penetrators and Defenders... I know it can dispatch a wounded deer, so I'm confident it'd work on a cat if needed.

I wouldn't want to chance it with blackbear though. I'm figuring it should be fine for the like 250Lbs common weight of them here in SoCal. But thing is ya also hear about the occasional 400+ boar or whatever, and I'm like ain't no way in hell I'm trusting .380acp on the bigger ones. I mean I read recent story of guy who shot and managed to take out 2 of like 4 Wolves that were trying to en-circle him with his .380acp! They all fled, at least 2 they know of, died.

Even so, that's tempting fate a little too much for me. So for bear spots, I *was* bringing the Ruger Security Six .357Mag with me. But loaded it's like 39oz. So I felt like I wanted a lighter option. Looked into it, seems like a 9mm would have done it, but I know my luck, so I instead opted for the Glock 29 in 10mm since that for sure brings the power-levels back up to .357 Mag+ territory. So with 10rds now AND shaved off 7oz in fully loaded carry weight! Also shaved holster weight! Was using a Diamond D Center Chest right, which is very cool and all, but it gets to be much underneath your pack shoulder straps all day AND underneath a bino harness. So when I made the switch I also went with a Kydex holster setup that hangs under the bino harness. Carries great there. Just gotta be mindful of where you're resting the buttstock of your rifle while waiting on your sit, being careful the rifle doesn't happen to accidentally clunk up against the exposed part of the slide or the backstrap of the pistols grip.


Have a little S&W Model 60 3", fairly light, but those sights are more narrow than they need to be IMO and they didn't engineer much space between the front blade and the rear notch in the sight-picture. (Since it's the "Detective Special" meant to be slim.)

So for that reason and my aging eyes/bad vision now, I skip on bringing that one into the woods anymore, just because I think it would be hard to get aimed properly fast enough. And with a tamer cartridge like .38spl +P, in the woods, with the 5 Rd count limit also, for me, that would start feeling a bit light/sparse. At least if blackbears are around. I'm sure it would work at dissuading them and making them turn tale. I just feel like ya can't always trust that cartridge though when it comes to bears, with its lesser energy. And I only say this after having found and brought home a Bear's Humerus (upper arm) bone I'd found out there. Like 4" diameter at it's THINNEST point! That just seems like it would be an awfully tall order for a .38spl+P out of a 3"bbl to fill, is all I'm sayin'.

I just like knowing that the 10mm should soo totally be able to do the job, because I know they've done the job on Grizzlies, so a SoCal blackbear should be no problemo for that round. Doesn't hurt that the gun is very accurate too.

 

[Anschutz]

Pretty much. But, I seem to recall in all the research I did before I bought my Glock 29, that a juiced-up 10mm round has a lil more ft-lbs than a juiced-up .357. More like a .41 Magnum round. Which is a small jump up from a .357

Your research was ill informed. I believe it comes from a time that police used the 41Mag downloaded for less recoil (sounds like a familiar story).
Using Grizzly Cartridge data for their highest energy offering:
357 Mag 200gr: 750fpe
41 Mag 265gr: 1153fpe
10mm 220gr: 703fpe

Even Federal Blue Box 41M pushes out 705fpe. Now all this fussing is useless because even when talking about hip/chest-worn cannons, a simple 30-06 is going to hit harder and research shows that spray is extremely effective when you train in how to employ it (I'm still weary that it's not the final solution to a bear with a bad attitude).



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[TheGDog]

Having even a slight bit of breeze blow some micro droplets of the spray... back onto you... is no joke, and could seriously compromise your ability to defend yourself. That stuff burns like the Sun!

On a scouting mission, in July of that year, I did a test spray, (because I had to buy a new canister, the prior one slipped out of it's non-retentioned holster it had.) I didn't perceive there to be any wind. But apparently ther was an extremely light air current movement that lazily wafted some droplets back over to me a good number of seconds later after the test spray. I was picking up my TP & wipees in the ziploc on the ground (I'd just finished heading natures call).. when I felt the first droplet land in my eye. When I blinked.. in milliseconds I knew what just happened and sprinted to the truck 10yds away to profusely wash my eye and back of hand back of knee, etc. the places I'd felt the droplets land on.

Happened at 7:45a. Even after washing as best I could, wipees and all... the burn was like 2nd-degree sunburn... and lasted until 1pm. While hiking in, as long as I maintained forward motion, air flowing over my body helped keep the burn to what we'll call "tolerable" levels. When I'd stop to take a drink of water... the burning sensation... which throbbed with your pulse... would start to increase until the uncomfortable-ness of it spurned me back into resuming walking so the burn would de-escalate back down to those "tolerable" levels. I had to put on my liner gloves because the back of my hand that got the droplets could NOT take the suns rays landing upon it!

I only bother sharing that story because I sincerely believe relying on only the spray would be a not-good tactical decision. For most of the stuff I'm sure it works well. But the thought of perhaps needing to deploy against a bear, while you're inside a tent... that thought is uber-cringe-inducing to me personally, as I'm sure some of the spray would manage to get itself onto you in such a case. And you'd be EFF'd in terms of continuing to intelligently defend yourself.

-=-=-=-

Obviously your comparisons of cartridge ft-lbs has the luxury of doing so with without the restrictions of lead-free ammo.

Right away I saw you noted 200gr .357 Mag and first of all I'm like WTF? As I've never seen a projectile that heavy on a .357 loading before. Since you mentioned it, I'm sure it therefore must exist. Just that I'd never seen such a loading before.

Anyhoo... when you look at the comparo thru the eyes of "lead-free" you'll come up with a different tail of the numbers. And the numbers you get, for 10mm, from this compact form-factor which lowers your available velocities, as I remember it... are very comarable to a .357 rd out of a 4" w/ same kind of projectile. But with the benefit of heavier projectile (and slightly wider) so bigger hole and more inertia to keep driving it in.

And like I said... 4 more rds and 7oz less!

 

[Anschutz]

Obviously your comparisons of cartridge ft-lbs has the luxury of doing so with without the restrictions of lead-free ammo.

Right away I saw you noted 200gr .357 Mag and first of all I'm like WTF? As I've never seen a projectile that heavy on a .357 loading before. Since you mentioned it, I'm sure it therefore must exist. Just that I'd never seen such a loading before.

And like I said... 4 more rds and 7oz less!

I was surprised the first time I saw them. Grizzly Cartridge and AK Backpacker load them. Underwood may. There a European company that makes 230gr bullets but they're more or less a wadcutter. They're pretty close to full cylinder length on my 627 (8 shot) and recoil is stout but manageable. I've never looked at the lead free stuff as I have no intention to use it.

I do agree with the bear spray argument. I went to turn in my gas mask 4 years after going through the CS Chamber. I slipped it on and there was for sure some residue. My wife carries it but like I said I prefer some finality.


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[TheGDog]

My wife carries it but like I said I prefer some finality.

I'm DEFINITELY with you their. Also the BearSpray is a good way to teach them that "See? It just sits there and does nothing, yet you know what it's capable of!" to inch them towards carrying a pistol when they're on hikes as the eventual end goal. But she does hike with these hiking groups that most likely would loose their isht if somebody showed up packing to one of their group hikes. So for now Spray it is. Has to have something, I tell her, since she goes on lotta these while I'm on a hunt day. So want her to have something just in case some creeper dude tries something after or during a hike (Because she is a very beautiful lady). Very low likelihood of that kinda trouble, I went on a couple outing with her and that group, the group seems fun, but you never know when some creeper may show up to an event in those groups.

I'm sure spray work for most folks just fine, most of the time. But life has a way of throwing me in particular the worst luck some times, So like you.. that finality aspect is very appealing to me. So I like options.

Only sometimes, if the distances of the hike-in involved, and Elevation Gain involved, really push my envelope with my lumbar/saccral injury there's been a small number of times I cringingly made the decision to just bring only spray as backup. Cause the weight was killing my injury on those uphills.

But on another outing to that area, I was awakened at 3am by "the funk" wafting over me in the tent. Somewhere not too far away, I'm pretty sure what I smelled was a bear. I unzipped that time and popped my head and arms out to 360 check slowly with light and revolver.. and... nothing! Saw no movement, heard no movement! Really weirded me out that night and I didn't sleep for beans after that. Also I realized my ol' revolvers sights are pretty much useless in the dark. And I figure the weapon having nite-sights adds yet an extra degree of redundancy to potentially save my behind out there. Like if my lights died or something.

The little .380 has them, and their awesome, and I've taken that .380 into non-bear areas as I've said. I even took it into bear areas a few times. But I didn't like the wondering if it'd be up to the task, ya know?

So then figured maybe get a plastic framed 9mm maybe. Since you can get up to like 530's in ft-Lbs if I remember right. But then that gnawing thought of, "But yeah what if it's that once in a lifetime big ol 400#+ old big boar you gotta contend with?" But still demanded a lighter weight option than that revolver at 39oz loaded. Then saw the Glock G29.. so dove into buncha vids/reviews about that, and came away impressed. So dropped the coin. Still need to get around to getting the aftermarket Trijicon Night sights installed onto it though, keep forgetting to take care of that during the week. But it's accuracy has impressed me, when I get the trigger pull just right. So it's definitely a keeper for me. Now kinda thinking of getting Mama the lil "Baby Glock" G26 as a piece for her to have on her adventures in the mountains as well. But I haven't pulled the trigger yet on that because one of her lady friends recommended she check out an M&P Shield, said she really liked the feel of that one. So figure wait til I can get Mama to try that one out and a few others before she decides. But I'd try to sway her toward that G26 so I could possibly "borrow" it to save weight sometimes!