308 copper bullet experience (or other moderate speed cartridges)

[jspradley]

I've shot several deer and pigs with old 180gr Pierce Munitions .308 (I believe they use Barnes TSX projectiles) and they work...really well. Only had to make a follow up with one deer and that was because of my shitty shooting and I spined it.

 

[PLhunter]

Hello all! I know I am late to the conversation here but in my conversion from lead to non-lead all the information I could get was helpful. This last year was my first-year rifle hunting in 4 years and I went with non-lead using barnes in a 30-06 and a 25-06. The results were great but different than with lead. The 25-06 took pronghorn at 180 yards and 375 yards. The damage at 375 was extreme and I wonder if the bullet tumbled at this range. The large pronghorn buck shot at 180 got up out of his bed and ran maybe 40 yards before even realizing he was hit. He went down shortly after, the damage was moderate but sufficient. Both were heart shots. The 30-06 was loaded with 168 grain barnes vor-tx putting out 2820 fps in my rifle. Because of the area I was hunting shots were long. I ended up taking a large mule deer at 485 yards. Which according to the ballistic tables puts me at right around 2000 fps under those conditions. The bullet entered quartering away broke two ribs on entering damaged both lungs and broke throw the center of the offside shoulder bone and exited. Leaving a 40 caliberish hole through the offside shoulder with no meat damage. Damage was not enough to be forgiving of any lesser shot placement. I don't think I would push this bullet much below that velocity level. Overall the meat savings alone were totally worth the negatives.

 

[Jclark225]

A little late to this post but thought I'd share my experience so far with the Barnes 175gr LRX out of my .308.
I was told they'd be too heavy to stabilize out of my shorter barrel but I'm getting ~2.5" groups at 419yds.

was also told they flat would not expand under 2000fps. I filled a plastic container with paper and water and shot it from 450yds. (My ballistics chart says 1917fps at impact.) Attached are two of the recovered bullets.

All in all it's been a winner for me as far as potential non lead hunting ammunition goes. I don't shoot off a bench or use sandbags btw. Just started load development so I can update with any changes.

 

[rileybassman]

A little late to this post but thought I'd share my experience so far with the Barnes 175gr LRX out of my .308.
I was told they'd be too heavy to stabilize out of my shorter barrel but I'm getting ~2.5" groups at 419yds.

was also told they flat would not expand under 2000fps. I filled a plastic container with paper and water and shot it from 450yds. (My ballistics chart says 1917fps at impact.) Attached are two of the recovered bullets.

All in all it's been a winner for me as far as potential non lead hunting ammunition goes. I don't shoot off a bench or use sandbags btw. Just started load development so I can update with any changes.

Nice expansion... I believe I heard somewhere 1800-2000 is for ttsx and like 1600- 1800 for lrx. Either way that looks good tho

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Austink47]

My hunting buddies and I have switched to Barnns copper. Outstanding results on elk and mule deer. We all shoot pretty standard cartridges 308, 270, 30-06, and shoot pretty conservative distances. As far as terminal ballistics are concerned all 10 or so elk I have seen shot with cooper seem to pretty much drop in their tracks.

 

[RCB]

OP here. I thought I'd report my results from last season.

I ended up going with 150 gr Federal Premium Trophy Copper ammo. My rifle (Savage 11, 308) seems to like Federal Premium. Barnes Vor-tx also shoots well.

I shot a mule deer through the shoulder at 215 yards, and a cow elk through the lungs at <50 yards. Full pass-through in both cases, and both died quickly. Happy with the performance.

 

[bcimport]

I haven’t had great success with the copper bullets. I’ve taken a caribou at about 300 yards with my 300 win mag using 180gr ttsx’s, a big black bear at 50 yards with that same combination.

I’ve also taken a mountain goat and another bear with an 18” barrel 308 and 165gr hornady gmx’s.

In all 4 cases I was quite underwhelmed by expansion and knock down. None of those 4 animals were “one and done”.

The last 4 or 5 animals (bears, goat and mule deer) I’ve taken have been with that same 18” barrel 308 and 200gr nosler partitions between 25 and 280 yards. Every one has been a one shot drop on the spot type experience. Lots and lots of variables involved but I have been much happier with the performance of the heavy partitions.

 

[prm]

I’ve used the 160gn .338 TTSX on a variety of large critters including elk and Kudu. Roughly same velocity as a 308 shooting 150s. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. I wouldn’t shy from the 130 either.

Edit: somehow I missed the post about your results. Congrats.

 

[Eric-solo]

I'm strongly considering copper bullets in my .308 for antelope, deer, elk. I like the idea of not risking lead ingestion, and helping out the environment is a nice bonus. This is my first year hunting so I have no experience or prejudice regarding any bullet.

I'd love to hear some first-hand experience on elk with copper bullets in .308 - or other cartridges of comparable velocity. I ask because evidently copper bullets perform best at high velocities (lower ranges are variously quoted at 1800, 2000, even 2200 fps), but the 308 is not a particularly fast cartridge. With 165 grain bullets in copper (what I usually shoot), I'll probably be at ~2100 fps at 300 yards from 22 inch barrel (I'm looking at Federal Trophy Copper - my gun seems to like Federal premium ammo). I'm wondering if I should be worried, if I should step down to 150 gr, etc.

So: for those of you who have shot elk with copper in moderate-speed cartridges - how did it go? Thoughts about performance compared to lead? Any reason to be concerned about 165 grain? Any "never-again" experience?

Do point me to another thread if this question has already been answered.

I loaded the Barnes175 lrx in my old featherweight -06 and it shot amazingly well. tried them in my kimber hunter 308 and damn... these thing are long! to fit them in the kimber magazine you have to push em so far in there's no room for powder!

 

[Eric-solo]

A little late to this post but thought I'd share my experience so far with the Barnes 175gr LRX out of my .308.
I was told they'd be too heavy to stabilize out of my shorter barrel but I'm getting ~2.5" groups at 419yds.

was also told they flat would not expand under 2000fps. I filled a plastic container with paper and water and shot it from 450yds. (My ballistics chart says 1917fps at impact.) Attached are two of the recovered bullets.

All in all it's been a winner for me as far as potential non lead hunting ammunition goes. I don't shoot off a bench or use sandbags btw. Just started load development so I can update with any changes.

what is your load if you don't mind me asking? I'm having trouble getting a decent group. shoots fine out of my -06 but am limited on powder do this neverending ammo crisis... just can't get good groups out of my 308

 

[Iman]

I would suggest to look at Cutting Edge Maximus. They claim to open reliably down to 1600. Used 150 gr with success on deer for two seasons from up close to 423y. Trying 180gr this year.

 

[Dunky]

I have had great results with 168 gr ttsx in my 308. Moose at 50, deer at 100, and elk 300 yds.

 

[Short Track]

TTSX .308 didn't expand in my Elk. Going back to eating lead.

 

[General RE LEE]

I handload Barnes 130 grain TTSX in my Tikka 308. 3000 FPS and kills deer like lightning.

 

[Macintosh]

as im learning more about how these things work it seems some (not all) lead bullets do cause more damage with a bigger wound channel, so one should not necessarily expect the animals reaction to be identical. Sounds like it could be an issue in some cases, although Ive never personally seen a situation where I think it would have mattered. I have never had a non-expansion of a copper bullet Or any issue that I think could be a result of bullet performance. what I have experienced is that there is significantly less meat loss with copper, which is very important to me and is the main reason I choose to hunt with it. Below is the sum of my copper experience on live critters.

7mm08 120gr ttsx 195yards, impact velocity about 2450 antelope— high lung hit, bqang flop, 2” exit wound.

7mm08 120gr ttsx 219 yds, impact velocity about 2400 fps, antelope, frontal shot at base of neck, bang flop. Lots of internal damage, exit out rear crease in front of ham.

7mm08 120gr ttsx 168 yards, impact. Velocity about 2550, double lungs from slightly above, antelope. 2” exit wound, ran 60 yards, stood there for 15 seconds or so and tipped over, kicked for a while and took a second shot. It was dead and still fighting, but. Tons of blood so would have been an easy trail.

3006 168 gr ttsx, 60 yards, impact velocity 2650 fps, elk heart shot took out the top of the heart, exited in off side crease. Humped and bucked, ran 10 yards and stopped for a second heart shot, and tipped over backwards and never moved again. Second bullet entrance was 2” from first, but lodged in the off-side shoulder ball joint, perfectly expanded with 96% weight retention. 1st bullet exit hole was about 3/4", internal damage (torn tissue, bloodshot) to heart and lungs extending about 2" around the hole.

3006 168gr ttsx, 110 yards, impact velocity about 2590, whitetail high broadside hit. Dropped on the spot, but was kicking himself in circles. Finished with one shot through breast bone and out spine. Bullet passed through vertebrae and was barely protruding through hide on the outside of the spine, perfectly mushroomed with 95% weight retention.

6.5mb 120 grain trophy copper, 80 yards, impact velocity about 2550, antelope. this was a second shot on an animal that had been hit badly—Antelope rear end was down but front end still up, this shot was hard quartering-to in front of the near shoulder and low, and exiting out high in the rear quarter, took out heart. heart was exploded, couldnt salvage any of it. Exit wound from second shot caused some meat damage to the rear of one backstrap. Roughly a 1.5” exit with an inch or so of damaged meat around it.

also edit-- one I forgot: 30caliber trophy copper, approximately 200 yards, impact velocity approximately 2575fps, pretty big bull elk broadside heart shot. Bull stood up out of bed, was hit, reared on his hind legs and toppled over backward. Full pass through, barely grazed the heart. exit wound was maybe 1"

these are the two copper bullets Ive recovered, as described above--both are 168gr fired from a 30-06. The darker colored one from the elk, the other from the deer.

 

[Short Track]

Not sure why anyone compares an Antelope to a Moose or Elk. I used Accubonds on an Antelope. Big mistake. All I got was a few pencil holes. Never again.

 

[Weldor]

Late here also, I took a nice american Bison a few years back with the16" barreled AR10 , Hornady GMX 165 1 shot 200 yds. I like the GMX no special reload recipes you can used published data. Regards.

 

[ElPollo]

TTSX .308 didn't expand in my Elk. Going back to eating lead.

Hey man, sorry to hear that. Shooting an animal and losing it is a hard bitter pill to swallow for anyone.

 

[doc holiday13]

I'm a fan of the coppers for short range. I'd think with a 308, you could get 130-150g bullets up in the 3k+ range which would keep you over 2k fps for awhile longer. A 130g ttsx at 3100 fps is at 2K fps still at 400 yards

 

[Macintosh]

Not sure why anyone compares an Antelope to a Moose or Elk. I used Accubonds on an Antelope. Big mistake. All I got was a few pencil holes. Never again.

Not sure if this was directed at me or what you are suggesting with regard to this topic, but I did cite several cases with antelope (and WT deer, which as far as I can tell are roughly close-enough to be considered identical in size and mass to an antelope). While I think it's generally accepted that solids will penetrate heavier game extremely well, I have not had any issue with expansion in deer-sized game using copper. I also dont have a lot of experience on elk in general. However, the copper I recovered from a deer looked very similar to the copper I recovered from an elk, but keep in mind each has a sample size of 1, as most of the shots I've had on game with copper were pass-throughs. The OP was going to use copper for a variety of game, with elk only being the primary aspecies he was concerned about performance and bullet choice. Seems relevant to me that at least in my case the bullet performance and recovered bullets between deer and elk were awfully similar with the same copper bullet, with the exception that the exit wounds on deer have been larger than the exit wound on the passed-through shot on an elk. I assume this is an indication that the maximum width of the permanent wound channel is well inside an elk, while it intersects the far side of a WT or antelope. It's a data-point, nothing more, nothing less, and I could see people taking my experience both as reason to use copper or as reason to avoid it. Do you see it differently?