.280 AI vs 28 Nosler for All Around?

[AZ_Hunter]

Spotting your own shots is something people underestimate. I consider it a force multiplier.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Spotting your own shots is something people underestimate. I consider it a force multiplier.

And, if you can, call your shots as well.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[eric1115]

Whatever you get, get a suppressor as well.

I would 100% take a blued plain Jane Tikka T3X with a good can over any cerakoted, cool-guy Roughtech/Veil/Seekins/whatever else if it meant the difference of being able to afford the suppressor or not.

If we were discussing a Savage Axis with suppressor vs T3X without, that might be a little different calculation, but for me budget allocation priority is:
1) Rifle that functions correctly and shoots accurately. T3x, maybe Howa (if for example the 6mm ARC really turns you on, the Howa mini can be a good way to do that), there are a few others as well. Personally I'd skip anything in the Savage/Ruger American zone.

2) Scope that functions correctly and retains zero. SWFA 3-9x if budget is tight-ish. See #6 if budget is generous but only after 3-5 are already in budget.

3) Suppressor. Total game changer. Reduces felt recoil substantially, slows recoil impulse, makes practice much more pleasant, totally changes the way animals react to the shot, eliminates the need for ear pro while hunting. With some of the chamberings that the smart guys are recommending (6CM, 6.5CM, etc) it can make the difference in a lot of shooting positions/distances between spotting your own impact through the scope vs not seeing it. No brakes! Brakes suck for you and everyone around you. Get a .30 cal can so you can use it on future rifles as well.

4) Lots of ammo. Practice is absolutely essential. This would be above suppressor but for the fact that it can be amortized a little bit more easily. You can buy a few hundred rounds at a time as needed. A big stack of the same lot is nice though, as you'll have more stability over time in terms of MV, zero, etc.

5) Rokstok. This is a really good upgrade that helped make my rifle easier to spot impacts, have recoil drive straight back instead of back and up at the muzzle.

6) Scope upgrade from #2, Maven RS1.2 is wonderful and very pleasant to use but probably won't make much of a measurable difference in ability to hit practical size targets at hunting distances.

7) cool guy stuff like cerakote, fluting, etc. It doesn't help you hit your target. But looking cool is very important.

 

[TaperPin]

The average hunter today spends way too much time on forums and not nearly enough time at the range and in the field. They need to feel validated in their rifle choices so start threads patting each other on the back for as small a rifle as is humanly possible to kill something, as if that’s a good thing. Add in cans because it’s too hard to use ear plugs, and scope with way too much magnification because what if all you can see of a deer is it’s nose, and never clean the thing you claim is so important to you.

I used to argue against the creedmoor, but paying attention outside my social circle at the range, today’s shooters can barely justify the 1/2 hour drive in perfectly good weather, all shoot factory ammo because they are too lazy to reload, barely have enough time with their scope to remember which direction to turn the turrets, and spend half their time trying to link the rangefinder they barely understand with the kestrel that they claim knows the wind speed at the plate they can’t hit. None of them see how dry firing is anything but stupid, and not a single one has ever burned out a barrel. Good god. The #1 thing an aspiring big game hunter should do is buy big boy pants and put the work in.

The 270 has been around in its current form for 100 years, the 7 mag since the 1960s, and both have quite literally killed millions of big game and the creedmoor kids want to claim nobody can hit with them. Lol

Spotting shots works for varmint hunting or slob hunting if you can’t hit your animal the first time. Learn to make the first shot count and all the whooey about the value of missing half the time goes out the window. It’s lazy. It’s Tacticool.

Every year kids get more half assed. Most should probably keep smoking pot, playing video games and sell their one rifle.

 

[WoolyBugger]

The average hunter today spends way too much time on forums and not nearly enough time at the range and in the field. They need to feel validated in their rifle choices so start threads patting each other on the back for as small a rifle as is humanly possible to kill something, as if that’s a good thing. Add in cans because it’s too hard to use ear plugs, and scope with way too much magnification because what if all you can see of a deer is it’s nose, and never clean the thing you claim is so important to you.

I used to argue against the creedmoor, but paying attention outside my social circle at the range, today’s shooters can barely justify the 1/2 hour drive in perfectly good weather, all shoot factory ammo because they are too lazy to reload, barely have enough time with their scope to remember which direction to turn the turrets, and spend half their time trying to link the rangefinder they barely understand with the kestrel that they claim knows the wind speed at the plate they can’t hit. None of them see how dry firing is anything but stupid, and not a single one has ever burned out a barrel. Good god. The #1 thing an aspiring big game hunter should do is buy big boy pants and put the work in.

The 270 has been around in its current form for 100 years, the 7 mag since the 1960s, and both have quite literally killed millions of big game and the creedmoor kids want to claim nobody can hit with them. Lol

Spotting shots works for varmint hunting or slob hunting if you can’t hit your animal the first time. Learn to make the first shot count and all the whooey about the value of missing half the time goes out the window. It’s lazy. It’s Tacticool.

Every year kids get more half assed. Most should probably keep smoking pot, playing video games and sell their one rifle.

 

[TaperPin]

And you damned wonna be artsy Burning Man hippies stay off my lawn!

 

[Q_Sertorius]

The average hunter today spends way too much time on forums and not nearly enough time at the range and in the field. They need to feel validated in their rifle choices so start threads patting each other on the back for as small a rifle as is humanly possible to kill something, as if that’s a good thing. Add in cans because it’s too hard to use ear plugs, and scope with way too much magnification because what if all you can see of a deer is it’s nose, and never clean the thing you claim is so important to you.

I used to argue against the creedmoor, but paying attention outside my social circle at the range, today’s shooters can barely justify the 1/2 hour drive in perfectly good weather, all shoot factory ammo because they are too lazy to reload, barely have enough time with their scope to remember which direction to turn the turrets, and spend half their time trying to link the rangefinder they barely understand with the kestrel that they claim knows the wind speed at the plate they can’t hit. None of them see how dry firing is anything but stupid, and not a single one has ever burned out a barrel. Good god. The #1 thing an aspiring big game hunter should do is buy big boy pants and put the work in.

The 270 has been around in its current form for 100 years, the 7 mag since the 1960s, and both have quite literally killed millions of big game and the creedmoor kids want to claim nobody can hit with them. Lol

Spotting shots works for varmint hunting or slob hunting if you can’t hit your animal the first time. Learn to make the first shot count and all the whooey about the value of missing half the time goes out the window. It’s lazy. It’s Tacticool.

Every year kids get more half assed. Most should probably keep smoking pot, playing video games and sell their one rifle.

I agree with some of what you say, but you need to get rid of the “kids these days” attitude. It detracts from your few valid points.

Spotting shots isn’t for hunting. It’s for practice.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[wapitibob]

Spotting shots works for varmint hunting or slob hunting if you can’t hit your animal the first time. Learn to make the first shot count and all the whooey about the value of missing half the time goes out the window. It’s lazy. It’s Tacticool.

Every year kids get more half assed. Most should probably keep smoking pot, playing video games and sell their one rifle.

Never spotted a shot in my life but it'd be fun to see.

 

[wapitibob]

Spotting shots isn’t for hunting. It’s for practice.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

I think you have that backwards.

 

[nm.otter]

Why does it have to be one or the other?

• Use it for practice so you can shoot by yourself if needed, and (with time) learn to read wind.
• Use it for hunting so you can see the impact and (hopefully) watch the critter fall over. In the event you want (or need) a follow-up shot, you're ready and able to do so.

 

[Gooden123]

Spotting your own shots is something people underestimate. I consider it a force multiplier.

Before I posted this, there was so much I was underestimating. I'm so glad I did this and am learning A LOT and it saved me from some mistakes

Whatever you get, get a suppressor as well.

I would 100% take a blued plain Jane Tikka T3X with a good can over any cerakoted, cool-guy Roughtech/Veil/Seekins/whatever else if it meant the difference of being able to afford the suppressor or not.

If we were discussing a Savage Axis with suppressor vs T3X without, that might be a little different calculation, but for me budget allocation priority is:
1) Rifle that functions correctly and shoots accurately. T3x, maybe Howa (if for example the 6mm ARC really turns you on, the Howa mini can be a good way to do that), there are a few others as well. Personally I'd skip anything in the Savage/Ruger American zone.

2) Scope that functions correctly and retains zero. SWFA 3-9x if budget is tight-ish. See #6 if budget is generous but only after 3-5 are already in budget.

3) Suppressor. Total game changer. Reduces felt recoil substantially, slows recoil impulse, makes practice much more pleasant, totally changes the way animals react to the shot, eliminates the need for ear pro while hunting. With some of the chamberings that the smart guys are recommending (6CM, 6.5CM, etc) it can make the difference in a lot of shooting positions/distances between spotting your own impact through the scope vs not seeing it. No brakes! Brakes suck for you and everyone around you. Get a .30 cal can so you can use it on future rifles as well.

4) Lots of ammo. Practice is absolutely essential. This would be above suppressor but for the fact that it can be amortized a little bit more easily. You can buy a few hundred rounds at a time as needed. A big stack of the same lot is nice though, as you'll have more stability over time in terms of MV, zero, etc.

5) Rokstok. This is a really good upgrade that helped make my rifle easier to spot impacts, have recoil drive straight back instead of back and up at the muzzle.

6) Scope upgrade from #2, Maven RS1.2 is wonderful and very pleasant to use but probably won't make much of a measurable difference in ability to hit practical size targets at hunting distances.

7) cool guy stuff like cerakote, fluting, etc. It doesn't help you hit your target. But looking cool is very important.

Unfortunately I don't live in The United States. I live in New Jersey So there won't be any suppressor as it's criminal. Only certain muzzle breaks are legal from what I understand but I certainly haven't gotten that far yet

 

[Gooden123]

The average hunter today spends way too much time on forums and not nearly enough time at the range and in the field. They need to feel validated in their rifle choices so start threads patting each other on the back for as small a rifle as is humanly possible to kill something, as if that’s a good thing. Add in cans because it’s too hard to use ear plugs, and scope with way too much magnification because what if all you can see of a deer is it’s nose, and never clean the thing you claim is so important to you.

I used to argue against the creedmoor, but paying attention outside my social circle at the range, today’s shooters can barely justify the 1/2 hour drive in perfectly good weather, all shoot factory ammo because they are too lazy to reload, barely have enough time with their scope to remember which direction to turn the turrets, and spend half their time trying to link the rangefinder they barely understand with the kestrel that they claim knows the wind speed at the plate they can’t hit. None of them see how dry firing is anything but stupid, and not a single one has ever burned out a barrel. Good god. The #1 thing an aspiring big game hunter should do is buy big boy pants and put the work in.

The 270 has been around in its current form for 100 years, the 7 mag since the 1960s, and both have quite literally killed millions of big game and the creedmoor kids want to claim nobody can hit with them. Lol

Spotting shots works for varmint hunting or slob hunting if you can’t hit your animal the first time. Learn to make the first shot count and all the whooey about the value of missing half the time goes out the window. It’s lazy. It’s Tacticool.

Every year kids get more half assed. Most should probably keep smoking pot, playing video games and sell their one rifle.

I can appreciate this line of thought and it was, more or less, my logic before making this post.

A couple things specific to me and why I'm now drawn to a smaller caliber are:

I'm 6'1 150 lbs. Basically a stick. I'd rather have less recoil on my boney shoulder.

Along the same lines, I'm looking for a gun to primarily backcountry hunt solo. I'm already carrying a lot of weight so I'd rather not add a 16 lb rifle. Every ounce really does matter and I cut all the weight possible by having the best ultralight clothing and gear made.

I could man up and I have in the past. Till I realized I didn't have to.

I'm not looking to get into all the other madness you mentioned. I just need a gun that hunts. I'll shoot it a lot to stay sharp, but I didn't even know what 'doping the wind' meant till yesterday.

I'm still leaning towards the 7mm side of the recommendations. But I like the sounds of way less recoil on 6.5 much better. My brother is pretty adamant about getting something that will shoot 165 gr bullet...

 

[Max2491]

280AI tried and true. I’ve heard, but don’t have personal experience, that the 28 nosler likes to burn through barrels

 

[180ls1]

And, if you can, call your shots as well.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

I am curious, since you are a big advocate of it, on animals what % have you spotted shots on and done this vs not?

Species, distance, environmental conditions over the past couple years would also be helpful.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I am curious, since you are a big advocate of it, on animals what % have you spotted shots on and done this vs not?

Species, distance, environmental conditions over the past couple years would also be helpful.

I’m a big believer in calling shots, rather than spotting shots. A shooter should have a good idea where the rifle was when the rifle went off.

As for spotting shots, I believe in it as a practice technique. It cannot be relied upon when shooting at big game (at least not where I hunt). The only shots I have spotted in big game situations are hits. For instance, last year, I had a prone shot on a buck at 150-yards with my 6.5 Grendel that I watched the high lung hit put him DRT. I’ve had similar experiences with prone shots from my .25-06.

But, in practice, the ability to spot impacts - especially for horizontal error - is important to me. When combined with the ability to call shots, it tells me right away how badly I misjudged the wind.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[elsb0048]

I can appreciate this line of thought and it was, more or less, my logic before making this post.

A couple things specific to me and why I'm now drawn to a smaller caliber are:

I'm 6'1 150 lbs. Basically a stick. I'd rather have less recoil on my boney shoulder.

Along the same lines, I'm looking for a gun to primarily backcountry hunt solo. I'm already carrying a lot of weight so I'd rather not add a 16 lb rifle. Every ounce really does matter and I cut all the weight possible by having the best ultralight clothing and gear made.

I could man up and I have in the past. Till I realized I didn't have to.

I'm not looking to get into all the other madness you mentioned. I just need a gun that hunts. I'll shoot it a lot to stay sharp, but I didn't even know what 'doping the wind' meant till yesterday.

I'm still leaning towards the 7mm side of the recommendations. But I like the sounds of way less recoil on 6.5 much better. My brother is pretty adamant about getting something that will shoot 165 gr bullet...

sometimes it helps me to simplify to some kind of equation.

In very broad strokes, maybe missing some exponents and the like: Recoil = (Mass(bullet + powder) x bullet velocity) / rifle weight

You want less recoil, reduce bullet/powder mass, reduce velocity, or increase rifle weight.

Is there a rifle you've shot with very comfortable recoil? Can you weigh the rifle and look up the ammo specs to get a rough Idea of what you're aiming at?

Firearms Recoil Calculator

Calculate the recoil for a rifle based on its weight and ammunition

bisonballistics.com

You need velocity for expansion but it's somewhat more stepwise than continuous, no critter will really care if the bullet hits at 2800 or 2200fps so long as the bullet expands correctly. Sounds like you don't care about distance, you mentioned 500yds is too far. 400 and in every big game hunting cartridge released since like 1920 will give you what you need.

I disagree with your brother on the 165min bullet weight but if you want to keep that as a constraint: Both 280ai and 28 nosler are desirable for performance past 500yds but sounds like that's not giving you much benefit so why not try any short-action cartridge like a 7mm-08 or .308 so you can shoot heavier bullets and just reduce your effective range? Or tell your brother to pound sand and buy a 6.5 creed, .243, or 6 creed lol.

As far as rifle weight: what's a heavy rifle to you? 16# is the absolute max legal limit in Idaho. You want to be lighter than that, are you aiming for a 6lb scoped sheep-weight rifle or would 8-10lb scoped do the trick? Does that get you down to a recoil impulse you're comfortable with pushing a bullet you want at a range you want?

 

[RockAndSage]

I'm still leaning towards the 7mm side of the recommendations. But I like the sounds of way less recoil on 6.5 much better. My brother is pretty adamant about getting something that will shoot 165 gr bullet...

If you're absolutely convinced 7mm is the way to go, maybe consider 7mm-08. It's a .308 Win cartridge necked down to 7mm, just as the 280AI is essentially a 30-06 cartridge necked down (and then blown out, etc). It's got less recoil than the 280AI or the 28 Nosler, and is a pretty common loading. Probably easier to find than either the 280AI or the 28, if not equally common.

If it's an issue of just not trusting the .223 yet, you might give careful consideration to the 6mm ARC - all the benefits of almost the lowest recoil you can find, with a bigger bullet going at plenty of speed to kill anything you'd want. Someone mentioned a Howa Mini above - lightweight handy guns, and they come in 6 mm ARC from the factory. You can pick up Hornady factory loaded ELDMs at about a buck a round, and so far it's pretty easy to find, both online and in stores: https://ammoseek.com/ammo/6mm-arc

Be careful about letting your brother influence you too much - go with what makes the most sense. And then invite him to a shooting match after you've got some time on the low-recoiling one you went with. He'll see the light. Because only hits count.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

Stop worrying about other people. You are a stick figure. Get something that is enjoyable to practice with and that will pay better dividends than the cartridge size. All the suggestions above are legit. If you’re too self conscious, or ego prevents getting a Creedmoor and you must get something bigger, then get a 270 or 6.5PRC at most and cal it a day.

 

[menhaden_man]

This was two days ago at LGS.

 

[Gooden123]

Stop worrying about other people. You are a stick figure. Get something that is enjoyable to practice with and that will pay better dividends than the cartridge size. All the suggestions above are legit. If you’re too self conscious, or ego prevents getting a Creedmoor and you must get something bigger, then get a 270 or 6.5PRC at most and cal it a day.

I'm listening to other people because they are a lot more knowledgeable than me, just like I'm listening to you. That's why I'm here.

No ego. I have a friend with a 6.5 Creedmoor (and the .300 attached) I can have. He won them and doesn't rifle hunt or shoot..I don't take hand outs but I simply don't need to buy certain guns. I also have a .243 and a 30-06 that I might shoot if needed (heirlooms otherwise). But I'm not here to tell my life story of gun access. I'm here to learn and I've learned so much off this thread.

I think the recoil turns me off of the 7mm PRC. Seems like a 6.5 PRC is a good middle ground. Rounds are about $0.35 than 6.5 CM which isn't any concern to me. And there are endless other guns that would work just fine but I'm trying to keep it to what's mostly been suggested to simplify things. I just need something to kill a bear for now.