25-06 and Elk

[WyoHuntr]

.25-06 shooting a 135 grain Berger over 60 grains of VV N570 at a hair under 3100.

Input Parameters
Bullet Diameter	0.257 inches	Zero Range	200 yards
Bullet Weight	135 grains	Sight Height	1.50 in
Ballistic Coefficient	0.650	Muzzle Velocity	3095 fps
Temperature	59 F	Wind Speed	10.00 mph
Altitude	1500 feet	Wind Direction	9 o'clock
Inclination	0 degrees	Berger Bullets	Copyright 2013

Range Card
Range	Velocity (fps)	Energy (ft-lbs)	Elevation (inches)	Windage (inches)	TOF (s)
100	2950	2610	1.25	0.46	0.10
200	2811	2369	-0.00	1.77	0.20
300	2676	2147	-5.64	4.01	0.31
400	2545	1942	-16.14	7.23	0.43
500	2418	1753	-32.00	11.50	0.55
600	2295	1579	-53.81	16.90	0.67
700	2175	1418	-82.22	23.52	0.81
800	2059	1271	-117.97	31.47	0.95
900	1946	1136	-161.93	40.84	1.10

What's your argument again? If you're an "energy" guy, and you believe in the mythical "1,500 minimum" for elk, this load meets your "requirements" out to 700 yards. Marginal? I think not.

EDIT:

For comparison against the .30-06 and 6.5 PRC, two universally renowned elk killers, the .25-06 holds it's own and then some.

View attachment 503274

My argument is I just saw the "load data" you pulled those numbers off of. You definitely haven't shot that, have you?! 107%fill N570 on a 90° day.... in a 25-06.... better bust out safety glasses!!!

If you're gonna throw other cartridge comparisons, add 200fps over book (with numbers for 26" barrels).... that'll get ya apples to apples But if you can get 270win numbers out of it, why not?! Also.... a .25 cal Berger Match bullet for elk.... really??? You realize there is a big Elite Hunter, right?

 

[BFR]

She didn’t know I was using a 6.5 CM and 124 gr Hammers at 395yds. She never will.

 

[WyoHuntr]

@WyoHuntr
"The energy sucks for elk."

How much energy does one need for elk?

What bullet did you use in the 25-06?

Enough to make a marginal hit mean something. Enough to where a little off the X means a short track instead of a "see ya later". Enough pop to make 'em pause long enough for another.

I've laid down firing squad style next to a 7mag & a 300mag, and dropped multiple cows. Watched the visible differences in impact. Watched who had more follow-up shots. Plus, I see the value in packing enough gun to wreck a bull at less than ideal angles. Trophies don't always give the easy shots.


I've seen elk killed with a 6mm rem, a .223 to the neck, and a 17gr hollow point at damn near 4000fps right between the eyes. (Btw, you do realize that 6cm is packing more steam than a 25-06 not shooting heavies, right?). There's a guy in my 22creed forum going to kill a bull with a 73gr Hammer Hunter next year... you'd probably like him! Hell, I saw a Berger that was pulled out of a bull's heart that was reloadable. Dude popped it at 1350yds+ with a 6.5 creed... so he probably beat the pants off your low energy numbers! Just enough energy to thread between ribs and make it to the heart. But he's smarter than everybody else because he was standing over a dead bull, right??? I mean we just count the dead ones, not the ones that run off, right? ..... never hear much about those

Oh... and Sierra GameKings (117gr maybe) in front of a hot load. About as good as it got back then.

 

[goathunter]

I've shot one cow elk with a 25-06, 120 nosler partition, IMO the best traditional elk bullet choice for the cartridge. It was a pretty tough shot and it worked. I would use again but would take a 30 cal over it every time. I'd probably rate most of the 25 caliber cartridges the minimum I want for elk. I've read some of the other light caliber threads and the performance shown is not what I'm looking for. My experience, a well placed 180 Accubond or TTSX will put the hammer down. No follow up, no tracking. And try that setup out on antelope!

 

[PNWGATOR]

Bullets matter.

Impact velocity matters.

Wound channels matter.

Recoil matters.

Calibers not so much.

Energy/killing power matrix…worthless.

 

[bdg848]

I have no experience in real life but I plugged in some numbers for one of those black jack ace high bc bullets, a 130gr .257 at 3000fps, and it had way more energy than a high bc 270 bullet. I thought that was interesting.

 

[fwafwow]

Enough to make a marginal hit mean something.

• I shall not today attempt further to define the energy needed to kill elk kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the 25-06motion picture involved in this case is not that.
  • Concurring, Jacobellis v. Ohio, 378 U.S. 184 (1964)WyoHuntr

 

[Mountainrancher]

Enough to make a marginal hit mean something. Enough to where a little off the X means a short track instead of a "see ya later". Enough pop to make 'em pause long enough for another.

I've laid down firing squad style next to a 7mag & a 300mag, and dropped multiple cows. Watched the visible differences in impact. Watched who had more follow-up shots. Plus, I see the value in packing enough gun to wreck a bull at less than ideal angles. Trophies don't always give the easy shots.


I've seen elk killed with a 6mm rem, a .223 to the neck, and a 17gr hollow point at damn near 4000fps right between the eyes. (Btw, you do realize that 6cm is packing more steam than a 25-06 not shooting heavies, right?). There's a guy in my 22creed forum going to kill a bull with a 73gr Hammer Hunter next year... you'd probably like him! Hell, I saw a Berger that was pulled out of a bull's heart that was reloadable. Dude popped it at 1350yds+ with a 6.5 creed... so he probably beat the pants off your low energy numbers! Just enough energy to thread between ribs and make it to the heart. But he's smarter than everybody else because he was standing over a dead bull, right??? I mean we just count the dead ones, not the ones that run off, right? ..... never hear much about those

Oh... and Sierra GameKings (117gr maybe) in front of a hot load. About as good as it got back then.

I’m sorry but there is no such thing as a “marginal” hit. Either it is in the vitals or it is not. No diameter or bullet or magnum name on a head stamp is going to change that.

 

[svivian]

Yeah bigger bullets make up for poor shot placement …. Get real and quit making excuses. I don’t care what you shoot but don’t tell me just because the bullet is bigger or has more energy it will change the out come.

 

[Formidilosus]

Enough to make a marginal hit mean something. Enough to where a little off the X means a short track instead of a "see ya later". Enough pop to make 'em pause long enough for another.

These are not cherry picked- they were shot two days apart within 15 yards of each other, impact location was similar, they were shot with vastly different cartridges and caliber, yet optimized bullets for both.

Which caliber did which?






Which one has “more margin for error”, and how much margin for error do you get that results in a “short track job” when a little of the x, with which caliber, bullet, and impact velocity? Can you be precise. Is it 1” off? 3 inches off? And is it linear- as you go up in caliber, the “margin for error” goes up equally as well? Is that independent of bullet? What about velocity? Or “energy”- what ft-lbs of energy does it take each bullet to work correctly and damage tissue at?

. But he's smarter than everybody else because he was standing over a dead bull, right??? I mean we just count the dead ones, not the ones that run off, right? ..... never hear much about those

Why is it that everyone uses fallacies in these discussions? If claiming elk are bulletproof isn’t working, bring up grizzlies. If shown more pictures and results from a single year than you have seen in your life; bring in “you only talk about the ones recovered, not lost”.

Here’s an idea- maybe they aren’t losing any. I certainly haven’t. I have zero issues discussing problems that happen when hunting. We had problems this year with a couple of people, yet elk moving rapidly after being shot were not apart of them, nor were wound channel sizes. I have been with Ryan for 4 elk this hunting season, and 5 in the last 12 months. Three of them were with 6mm’s- one of those cleaning up a mess from a “big gun”. You might read a bit more and see that Ryan has historically been a big proponent of large cartridges and 30cals for elk.

Destroyed tissue is what kills- the differences between the best bullets in .224 all the way to .308 are not nearly as great as people believe.

 

[willfrye027]

My argument is I just saw the "load data" you pulled those numbers off of. You definitely haven't shot that, have you?! 107%fill N570 on a 90° day.... in a 25-06.... better bust out safety glasses!!!

If you're gonna throw other cartridge comparisons, add 200fps over book (with numbers for 26" barrels).... that'll get ya apples to apples But if you can get 270win numbers out of it, why not?! Also.... a .25 cal Berger Match bullet for elk.... really??? You realize there is a big Elite Hunter, right?

Nah that’s reasonable. I got up to 3190 in a 26” tube with blackjacks and n570 in my 25-06. Since have moved on to other cartridges with the 135s. Berger’s data has been pretty conservative for the 135s; I’ve shot them in a few cartridges

Here’s a cow elk shot with my 25 creed and the 135s at 330 yards. She was very dead, don’t think a 30 cal would have made her any more dead. I’m around a dozen big game animals with them, so far they are excellent.

 

[SwiftShot]

Once again know your limits. Pick the right bullets. I cant find the picture but on a bull I killed during archery a few years back, I found a 30 cal in his shoulder blade. The shot had to be long as it really did not deform, but it was in the bone. It was at least 160 grains. Limits, the right bullets, and placement. Oh and be ready to follow up with tracking. I hunt PNW and am tired of I must have missed him people. Then I go in there 2 days later and find him 100 yards away. Will 2506 do it, yes if you do your part. You take the shot you spend time looking for the animal. Use the right bullets do your part and you should be fine.

 

[WyoHuntr]

Reminds me of gunwriters saying the "myth" of knockdown power. You don't think a 50BMG to the gut would drop one on the spot??! I'll bet i could miss the vitals with that one! Take that same concept, roll it back towards to acceptable meat loss, and maybe you can conceptualize the "myth" of enough energy .... (or enough for a marginal hit to make a difference)

Shooting small stuff with big guns is just as telling. (Blowing up nuisance antelope with a .338 Lapua can be entertaining.... but not really considered hunting). Example:
Doe antelope
300prc w/ 212 eld-x @2950= too much gun
25-06 w/ 110 GameChanger @3100= hell yeah
17rem w/ 17gr hp @4000= not enough gun (though I've seen it done)
Hell, old school African safaris were done with some weak sauce old rounds. But they still killed the big 5 by the hundreds. Trying to shoot an elephant with a 7x57 Mauser today would be considered a d*** move!

So, after several years of filling up to 3 elk tags a year with a 25-06, I'd put it at marginal. I respect elk as one the toughest animals to drop. I hunt country where a high-shoulder anchoring shot might be the only play.... and I wouldn't put all my chips on a 110gr bullet!

 

[WyoHuntr]

Nah that’s reasonable. I got up to 3190 in a 26” tube with blackjacks and n570 in my 25-06. Since have moved on to other cartridges with the 135s. Berger’s data has been pretty conservative for the 135s; I’ve shot them in a few cartridges

Here’s a cow elk shot with my 25 creed and the 135s at 330 yards. She was very dead, don’t think a 30 cal would have made her any more dead. I’m around a dozen big game animals with them, so far they are excellent.

View attachment 504025

That's actually pretty impressive. That being said, I still wouldn't be comfortable generalizing a 25-06 going by that. Thats faster than my 110's! Starting to talk a bit of a different animal with the new fast-twist / shooting 130gr+. I say that owning a few rifles / science experiments that are loaded so far over book numbers, the headstamp on the case isn't hardly relevant.


Alright, I've had my fill of arguing with internet strangers. Im out. You all enjoy your angry typing

 

[goathunter]

Nah that’s reasonable. I got up to 3190 in a 26” tube with blackjacks and n570 in my 25-06. Since have moved on to other cartridges with the 135s. Berger’s data has been pretty conservative for the 135s; I’ve shot them in a few cartridges

Here’s a cow elk shot with my 25 creed and the 135s at 330 yards. She was very dead, don’t think a 30 cal would have made her any more dead. I’m around a dozen big game animals with them, so far they are excellent.

View attachment 504025

More details please. Dropped on the spot? Ran off a ways? Required follow up shot? What did the bullet do? Major damage?

 

[goathunter]

That's actually pretty impressive. That being said, I still wouldn't be comfortable generalizing a 25-06 going by that. Thats faster than my 110's! Starting to talk a bit of a different animal with the new fast-twist / shooting 130gr+. I say that owning a few rifles / science experiments that are loaded so far over book numbers, the headstamp on the case isn't hardly relevant.


Alright, I've had my fill of arguing with internet strangers. Im out. You all enjoy your angry typing

Good point, not really comparable to the old 25-06 the OP is asking about

 

[Billy Goat]

I had a groundhog run back into its hole with a 7rm.

#bringenoughgun

 

[willfrye027]

More details please. Dropped on the spot? Ran off a ways? Required follow up shot? What did the bullet do? Major damage?

Shot was broadside and behind the shoulder, found the jacket under the hide on the offside shoulder. Obliterated the lungs. She turned and stood there facing me for a few seconds and then died. A few days later I killed a buck with the same setup and shot placement at 450 or so and it did a 40 yard death sprint.

When I hit them in the shoulder blade with this combo they have dropped on the spot and died. Lung/heart shots without bone and they often do a short death run.

 

[willfrye027]

I had actually brought my 30-06 on this hunt (Montana combo) in addition to my 25 creedmoor. I was hunting some sagebrush country and didn’t expect to see an elk but wasn’t about to look a gift horse in the mouth (nice cow 40 yards away from a dirt road). Now I would not hesitate to use the combo again.

 

[goathunter]

Shot was broadside and behind the shoulder, found the jacket under the hide on the offside shoulder. Obliterated the lungs. She turned and stood there facing me for a few seconds and then died. A few days later I killed a buck with the same setup and shot placement at 450 or so and it did a 40 yard death sprint.

When I hit them in the shoulder blade with this combo they have dropped on the spot and died. Lung/heart shots without bone and they often do a short death run.

I bet those shoulder shots destroyed the shoulder?