223 vs 22CM

[Formidilosus]

Form, do you have experience with either the 90gr VLD or the 85.5 LR Hybrid?

A bit. Neither are as good terminally as the ELD-M or TMK.

 

[cod0396]

Timely thread. I was thinking of posting this very topic while I was out exercising this morning. Not 223 vs 22 Creed, but 223 vs 22-250, which is essentially the same.

Does the extra velocity translate to more tissue destruction?

Does a 77 TMK, or some of the other bullets that work well at 223 speeds, come apart at 22-250 velocities?

Are stout bonded bullets the better path at 22-250 velocities?

How much of what we have learned in the 223 thread transfers to the 22 Creed and 22-250?

I hope this isn't too much of an aside. The question would seem to translate well to what the OP is asking.

I need to load my grandson some 22-250 deer ammo. Shots under 150 yards with a properly twisted rifle. This is what I have for bullets. Full throttle with all of them? Back off velocity with the TMK and ELD?

I'm not as knowledgeable as most here, but I can answer some of these questions.

Does the extra velocity translate to more tissue destruction?

Yes, absolutely. Assuming similar shot placement, a 77 TMK striking an animal in excess of 3000fps will expand more, fragment more and dump the (already greater) energy into the target more effectively than a 77 TMK striking an animal at 2700fps. You will see a larger temporary cavity (bloodshot and bruised meat), an even shorter wound neck (distance the bullet travels before expanding/fragmenting) and larger permanent wound cavity. Velocity makes a huge difference.

Does a 77 TMK, or some of the other bullets that work well at 223 speeds, come apart at 22-250 velocities?

The 77 TMK already comes apart quite dramatically at .223 velocities. At .22-250 velocities, it will indeed be even more explosive. According to Form and others who have used this combination, penetration is still adequate even at impact velocities over 3000fps. Somewhere in the range of 12" on whitetail, I believe. That's more than enough for me, but some may prefer more penetration.

Are stout bonded bullets the better path at 22-250 velocities?

Compared to the 77 TMK? In my opinion, nope. This is something you'll have to decide for yourself, as it really just depends on your priorities. 77 TMK at .22-250 or 22CM velocities is extremely destructive yet still penetrates adequately. I can't think of other .224" bullet aside from similar or heavier ELD-Ms that are as ethical on medium game, even at higher impact velocities. If you would prefer a bullet that penetrates more and exits more consistently, bonded bullets are a good choice. Ditto if you'd prefer a less destructive bullet for whatever reason. Personally, if I went with a bonded bullet, I wouldn't choose stout bullets. I'd rather use something like the 75gr gold dot, which provides a very good balance between tissue damage and penetration at both .223 and .22-250 velocites. If for whatever reason you wanted to or had to use light for caliber bullets, stout bonded bullets may be the best choice.

How much of what we have learned in the 223 thread transfers to the 22 Creed and 22-250?

Most, if not all of it. We're talking about the same bullets, just pushed at higher velocities. You'll have the same performance as the 77 TMK/.223 at longer ranges and even more dramatic performance up close. I really don't see any downsides with this combination.

I need to load my grandson some 22-250 deer ammo. Shots under 150 yards with a properly twisted rifle. This is what I have for bullets. Full throttle with all of them? Back off velocity with the TMK and ELD?

No need to down load these. Full throttle with all of them.

 

[cod0396]

The 22CM isn’t a replacement for the fast twist 223; it’s a replacement for nearly everything bigger. If people saw how a fast .224 kills with 88gr ELD-M’s or the 77gr TMK, as well as the ridiculous hits rates in the field with it, there’s really no reason for bigger calibers/cartridges for the vast majority of uses.

@Formidilosus in your experience, does tissue damage correlate more with overall energy or impact velocity? For example, an 88gr ELD-M out of a 22 creedmoor at 3200fps impact velocity vs a 147gr ELD-M out of a 6.5 Creedmoor at 2700fps impact velocity. Given similar shot placement, which do you think would do more tissue damage? The 6.5CM has a decent advantage in energy, bullet mass, diameter, amount of fragmentation, etc. but I'm not entirely sure that it would be more destructive than the .224" 88gr ELD-M traveling at a much higher velocity. Thoughts?

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I'm not as knowledgeable as most here, but I can answer some of these questions.


Yes, absolutely. Assuming similar shot placement, a 77 TMK striking an animal in excess of 3000fps will expand more, fragment more and dump the (already greater) energy into the target more effectively than a 77 TMK striking an animal at 2700fps. You will see a larger temporary cavity (bloodshot and bruised meat), an even shorter wound neck (distance the bullet travels before expanding/fragmenting) and larger permanent wound cavity. Velocity makes a huge difference.


The 77 TMK already comes apart quite dramatically at .223 velocities. At .22-250 velocities, it will indeed be even more explosive. According to Form and others who have used this combination, penetration is still adequate even at impact velocities over 3000fps. Somewhere in the range of 12" on whitetail, I believe. That's more than enough for me, but some may prefer more penetration.


Compared to the 77 TMK? In my opinion, nope. This is something you'll have to decide for yourself, as it really just depends on your priorities. 77 TMK at .22-250 or 22CM velocities is extremely destructive yet still penetrates adequately. I can't think of other .224" bullet aside from similar or heavier ELD-Ms that are as ethical on medium game, even at higher impact velocities. If you would prefer a bullet that penetrates more and exits more consistently, bonded bullets are a good choice. Ditto if you'd prefer a less destructive bullet for whatever reason. Personally, if I went with a bonded bullet, I wouldn't choose stout bullets. I'd rather use something like the 75gr gold dot, which provides a very good balance between tissue damage and penetration at both .223 and .22-250 velocites. If for whatever reason you wanted to or had to use light for caliber bullets, stout bonded bullets may be the best choice.


Most, if not all of it. We're talking about the same bullets, just pushed at higher velocities. You'll have the same performance as the 77 TMK/.223 at longer ranges and even more dramatic performance up close. I really don't see any downsides with this combination.


No need to down load these. Full throttle with all of them.

Thank you for the response.

 

[SouthPaw]

Building a 22cm as we speak, will I have any reason to keep my 6.5cm once its done? I try to have as little overlap of systems as possible.

Depending on where you hunt or may plan to hunt, you may want to hold onto the 6.5cm or something 6mm+ you're comfortable hunting with. Some states have caliber minimims for big game or specific species rendering the 22cals unusable.

 

[Trackselk]

@Formidilosus
I know you said in another thread that you'd move if you had to shoot monos, which was hilarious by the way. But, what would be your minimum combination for elk out to 500 yards with barnes LRX? I'm rebarrelling my 308 Ascent, and was about to have another 18" 6.5cm, but might a 16" 6CM with barnes LRX do the job even better (less recoil)?
They also just happen to roll factory LRX in 6cm which makes my day!
- and x2 on what another dude asked above in this thread. Will a supressed 16" 6cm be louder than say a supressed 18" 6.5CM? I'll go 18" if it saves what precious little hearing I have left...
Edit *suppressed

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus
I know you said in another thread that you'd move if you had to shoot monos, which was hilarious by the way. But, what would be your minimum combination for elk out to 500 yards with barnes LRX?

22CM with 77gr LRX.

I'm rebarrelling my 308 Ascent, and was about to have another 18" 6.5cm, but might a 16" 6CM with barnes LRX do the job even better (less recoil)?
They also just happen to roll factory LRX in 6cm which makes my day!
- and x2 on what another dude asked above in this thread. Will a supressed 16" 6cm be louder than say a supressed 18" 6.5CM? I'll go 18" if it saves what precious little hearing I have left...
Edit *suppressed

A 6cm with 95gr LRX would do about as well as anything with monos. Suppressed it won’t really matter between a 16” 6mm and an 18” 6.5 with a good suppressor.

 

[Trackselk]

22CM with 77gr LRX.





A 6cm with 95gr LRX would do about as well as anything with monos. Suppressed it won’t really matter between a 16” 6mm and an 18” 6.5 with a good suppressor.

Thank you for taking your time to answer this! Just to clarify one thing. If the barrel was to be 16.75" (leaving enough for potential thread damage and rethread), would you go with the 22cm or 6cm, or is the 22cm plenty with the LRX and the short barrel at 500? I'm guessing it goes back to the 1800 fps thing, even on big elk?

Looks like velocity will be about 2300 at 500 yards with the lrx in 22cm and a 16" barrel at 6500 ft elevation.

 

[Formidilosus]

Thank you for taking your time to answer this! Just to clarify one thing. If the barrel was to be 16.75" (leaving enough for potential thread damage and rethread), would you go with the 22cm or 6cm, or is the 22cm plenty with the LRX and the short barrel at 500? I'm guessing it goes back to the 1800 fps thing, even on big elk?

Looks like velocity will be about 2300 at 500 yards with the lrx in 22cm.

One could shoot a hundred animals with each and just watching the reactions, distance traveled, and looking at wound channels they wouldn’t be able to tell which was which.

1,800fps with any of them is absolute minimum impact velocity where some expansion in the chest might occur. Really 2k FPS is better, and 2,200’ish is best.

 

[Trackselk]

One could shoot a hundred animals with each and just watching the reactions, distance traveled, and looking at wound channels they wouldn’t be able to tell which was which.

1,800fps with any of them is absolute minimum impact velocity where some expansion in the chest might occur. Really 2k FPS is better, and 2,200’ish is best.

Thanks again! I'm leaning hard towards the 22 vs the 6, but the availability of factory ammo sure makes the 6cm look better! Decisions decisions.

 

[Trackselk]

22CM barrel is in route to tbac for their in house 9/16" direct threads for the narrow kimber profile (going with 18"). The only risk is that I didn't want to wait months for a 7 twist, so hopefully this 8 will stabilize the 70gr or 77gr monos I bought. Big mistake?
- for those that mentioned 22-250. A reputable gunsmith told me they are "barrel burners", so might be something to consider if you're planning on shooting one a lot. I was curious because of the availability of factory ammo.
Any news on 22cm factory ammo in the works, or are any of you range/competitor/hobby shooters seeing it continue to pick up usage rapidly?

 

[wind gypsy]

22CM barrel is in route to tbac for their in house 9/16" direct threads for the narrow kimber profile (going with 18"). The only risk is that I didn't want to wait months for a 7 twist, so hopefully this 8 will stabilize the 70gr or 77gr monos I bought. Big mistake?
- for those that mentioned 22-250. A reputable gunsmith told me they are "barrel burners", so might be something to consider if you're planning on shooting one a lot. I was curious because of the availability of factory ammo.
Any news on 22cm factory ammo in the works, or are any of you range/competitor/hobby shooters seeing it continue to pick up usage rapidly?

If a 22-250 is a barrel burner, a 22 creed is a barrel burner +.

 

[Trackselk]

If a 22-250 is a barrel burner, a 22 creed is a barrel burner +.

Couldn't be a throat erosion thing? I was kind of curious why he said that... he's a great smith if nothing else...

 

[ResearchinStuff]

he said it because it's a cartridge that is hard on barrels, based on case capacity and bore diameter. The speed isn't free, but it can be worth it.

Barrel Life Calculator

pierrevanderwalt.com

 

[Trackselk]

he said it because it's a cartridge that is hard on barrels, based on case capacity and bore diameter. The speed isn't free, but it can be worth it.

Barrel Life Calculator

pierrevanderwalt.com

Well, what's surprising is that he said that the 22cm was better in comparison, because I asked him which was better

 

[BjornF16]

Well, what's surprising is that he said that the 22cm was better in comparison, because I asked him which was better

Isn't throat erosion influenced by shoulder angle? I was under the impression that 20º shoulders were more prone to throat erosion compared to same bullet, powder charge from 30-40º shoulder

 

[wind gypsy]

Isn't throat erosion influenced by shoulder angle? I was under the impression that 20º shoulders were more prone to throat erosion compared to same bullet, powder charge from 30-40º shoulder

I don't have a stack of dead barrels to say definitively but i tend to believe the folks that say all that shoulder angle, neck length, etc stuff is just noise in the grand scheme of things compared to case volume to bore size ratio, pressure, and how hot the barrel gets.

 

[wind gypsy]

Well, what's surprising is that he said that the 22cm was better in comparison, because I asked him which was better

I'd have a hard time understanding that. It's like saying a 22-250 AI will have better barrel life than a straight 22-250 given the same shooting frequency and pressure.

Maybe if a guy uses the same powder/charge/bullets in a 22 creedmoor that they would have in a 22-250 they would have better barrel life because pressures would be lower but the result would be less velocity than a 22-250.

 

[Toomuchon]

Dragging this thread back up, as I’m going through a bit of a dilemma…..
I want to consolidate down to one medium game rifle (yeah sounds ridiculous I know).
I have 2 T3x one in 223 and another in 6.5cm. Where I am here in New Zealand we can hunt Wapiti, Red stag (between elk and mule deer in size) chamois, himalayan tahr, pigs, fallow deer and sika deer. New Zealand can be a windy place, and quite mountainous so long shots can be fairly common - as far as you want to shoot really.
The question is, should I either; 1. keep the 223 and move on the 6.5. 2. Keep the 6.5 and move on the 223. Or 3. Rebarrel the 6.5 to 22cm and sell the 223?
From what I read, the 22cm could be a great ‘one rifle do it all’ setup.

 

[Matt5266]

If it were me and you could only keep one. 6.5 creed. But then again I would definitely keep both haha