.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[HandgunHTR]

I never said velocity has no bearing. Without it KE cannot be calculated.

You have that backwards. Without velocity, you cannot calculate KE. Velocity is a measurable variable. KE has to be calculated.

 

[PathFinder]

No most here are not getting the fact that KE is calculated with mass and velocity. I have said many times that it is bullet construction that applies that energy through how it's mass deforms. What KE defines is how much work a mass can potentially do when moving at a certain velocity. The killing of an animal depends on several things, bullet placement, how the bullets energy is utilized, even the state of mind of the animal. More kinetic energy is better up until it isn't. I'd say that is the point past adequate. Adequate is also subjective among individual preferences. Anyone who says energy plays no part in measuring cartridge performance is fooling themselves. KE is a useful equation, not perfect but still useful.

Oh we get it. We just don't care because it isn't the final metric that determines lethality. Destroyed tissue is what matters. People are hunting with small calibers because they understand that they destroy more than enough tissue to be highly effective. Larger calibers may destroy more, but in most cases the difference is marginal.
The shootability advantage of lighter calibers is not marginal, it's significant.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Mideerhunter]

4th animal with the 223. Adult MI whitetail doe at 150 using factory 73 eld-m. Quartering away shot through the lungs made her start stumbling but she didn't drop immediately so I put another through both shoulders which dropped her. The lungs and top of the heart were shredded again. Sorry, but I have no photos of the damage to organs.

 

[hunterjmj]

View attachment 810137

Exactly! We all know what bullets perform well so who really gives a rats ass about math formulas.

 

[FredH]

False statement. Why will steel will be penetrated by a 223 and dented by a 308 at the same impact velocity if they are "doing the same work"?

Jay

So how would a 223 do the same work as a 308? At the same velocity it won't. Steel may be dented or dimpled more by a small diameter bullet but any bullet from a 308 at the same velocity will impart more energy to the steel. Back when high power silhouette shoots were common the goal being to knock the target over there were many 308's and 7-08 rifles but no 223 rifles oddly enough. Even 6MM rifles were not reliable knocking over the 500 yard Ram. If the projectiles are similarly constructed and going the same speed the one with the greater mass will move the most mass at impact.

 

[omicron1792]

So how would a 223 do the same work as a 308? At the same velocity it won't. Steel may be dented or dimpled more by a small diameter bullet but any bullet from a 308 at the same velocity will impart more energy to the steel. Back when high power silhouette shoots were common the goal being to knock the target over there were many 308's and 7-08 rifles but no 223 rifles oddly enough. Even 6MM rifles were not reliable knocking over the 500 yard Ram. If the projectiles are similarly constructed and going the same speed the one with the greater mass will move the most mass at impact.

Dude. You’re ruining the thread. Please stop.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Dude. You’re ruining the thread. Please stop

@FredH

This. You can keep going on about KE on another thread. This one is for demonstrating that those mental masturbations over KE are pointless.

 

[Pharmseller]

Perhaps you were too busy being impressed with yourself to understand that was the question being asked.

I got no dog in the fight but that’s funny as hell.




P

 

[Shraggs]

Dude. You’re ruining the thread. Please stop.

Unless you’re a Barnes employee…

 

[Mideerhunter]

Hey guys, what 223 or 5.56 round would you use for deer if you couldn't use 73eldm or 77tmk? Also, what practice rounds are you using or are you just using more of the same ammo to practice and to hunt?

 

[The Guide]

Hey guys, what 223 or 5.56 round would you use for deer if you couldn't use 73eldm or 77tmk? Also, what practice rounds are you using or are you just using more of the same ammo to practice and to hunt?

Why wouldn't you use what works? If it is twist related, it has been said that the factory fusion ammo is good for 9 and 10 twist guns.

Jay

 

[goalie]

Why wouldn't you use what works? If it is twist related, it has been said that the factory fusion ammo is good for 9 and 10 twist guns.

Jay

It works well.

 

[Mideerhunter]

I can't find 77tmk in my area and I am just looking for more options. I'd like to be able to find a few more factory loads to see what my rifle likes the most. I was thinking of looking at the 70grn tsx. I'll probably just stick with the 73eldm.

 

[The Guide]

I can't find 77tmk in my area and I am just looking for more options. I'd like to be able to find a few more factory loads to see what my rifle likes the most. I was thinking of looking at the 70grn tsx. I'll probably just stick with the 73eldm.

I have NEVER seen anything heavy other than 77 BTHP ammo in a small gun shop store. I've ordered all the 77tmk ammo I've ever shot. The 73eldm I've only ever seen in a Scheels store and the rest I've had to order. I just ordered another 500 of the AAC 77tmk ammo last week. $500 for 500 rounds shipped. Supposedly their 77gr OTM ammo shoots similar for practice ammo and is around $0.60 per round. Order a couple hundred rounds and get out and practice more!

Jay

https://palmettostatearmory.com/brands/advanced-armament/ammo-reloading/ammo.html?caliber_multi_v2=5.56x45mm

 

[omicron1792]

I can't find 77tmk in my area and I am just looking for more options. I'd like to be able to find a few more factory loads to see what my rifle likes the most. I was thinking of looking at the 70grn tsx. I'll probably just stick with the 73eldm.

62gr fusion seems to be the go to there. I’ve used it with good results before switching to 77TMK

 

[SamsonMan22]

62gr fusion seems to be the go to there. I’ve used it with good results before switching to 77TMK

How does the wound channels compare?

 

[omicron1792]

How does the wound channels compare?

That was pre me knowing people took pictures of wound channels. I do remember they often exited.

I have used fusion a ton in lots of calibers. Actually used tipped fusion in 6.5prc on my elk a few months ago. I like that it does fragment some but also dives deep. Kinda of a hybrid as I see it.

 

[omicron1792]

Look up @Formidilosus and 62gr fusion. I know he has posted some on it and recommends as one of bullets to use in 223.

 

[SamsonMan22]

That was pre me knowing people took pictures of wound channels. I do remember they often exited.

I have used fusion a ton in lots of calibers. Actually used tipped fusion in 6.5prc on my elk a few months ago. I like that it does fragment some but also dives deep. Kinda of a hybrid as I see it.

No problem I get it was just curious how they compared, I expect it to be smaller with the fusion but the exit is of interest to me. My experience is very limited with the fusions, my wife shot a couple of deer with the 120g 260rem loadings but that was a time when I did not analyze much either. Just was curious your findings with comparing the two since I have an interest in the gold dot bullets.

The 77tmk have proven well for me so far, and on deer that have run at all they have provided adequate blood trails. If I ever get to the point where I’m looking for more chance of a solid blood trail I think the gold dot bullets are where I would look. From the gel testing I have watched it appears the wound channels of the 62 and 75 are near identical with the 75 offering more penetration. So far the 77 tmk hasn’t let them go far so I have no reason to switch just yet.

 

[np307]

How does the wound channels compare?

I shot a doe last year with the 62 gr fusion and then tried the 77 tmk this year. Wound channel was good with the fusion but not as destructive as the tmk.

Edit: 62gr pics https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...n-goat-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/post-3360804