.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[rclouse79]

More powerful rifles do require more practice to shoot well. Was there any mention of how much shooting each of the participants did? My Model 7 in 7-08 is harder to shoot well than a varmint weight barreled 223 without question. It won't shoot half inch groups no matter who is behind the trigger.

I think he shot all of the rifles himself. Looked like around 20.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Hard to answer definitively but yes, a suppressor does make a 223 significantly more enjoyable to shoot. My daughters will be introduced to centerfire rifles with suppressed 223s but that's easy to say because I've already got one.

You also don't need a $1000 ti can. An AB a-10 warhog for $450 will significantly improve the shooting experience.

100% agree.

I have a little dedicated .223 can now that my son will use. It’s an Otter Creek Labs Polonium K that was $425 on sale.

 

[FredH]

I think he shot all of the rifles himself. Looked like around 20.

So not having years of experience shooting rifles from 338 WM down to rimfires. His article was subjective and he was the subject.

 

[FredH]

I used to think exactly the same way but this is false.

Can I get prone and shoot a 338 Lapua very well? Yes I can.

Can I shoot a 223 better consistently? Yes

Go try it in multiple field positions and see if you change your mind as I did.

A 338 Lapua can be quite comfortable to shoot if it is heavy enough and has a good break. However very few people use one. In my case I can put bullets exactly where I want them from any position with my current most powerful rifle, a 35 Whelen. Second being a 7MM RM. I generally don't notice recoil when shooting at game. If I were shooting 20 shot strings in a 3 position match then yes a 223 would be more fun to shoot. That said I used a Match M14 in 308 in a number of matches. This meaning for me anyway I have no problem with recoil under average hunting conditions. A light 338 Win Mag is my upper level of comfort. I quit using one as my elk rifle not because it kicked but because with bullets available at the time I was not getting the expansion I wanted past 400 yards. I then went through a 300 magnum phase which lasted a good while but got tired of getting in and out of trucks with it's 26 inch barrel. Went back to using a 30-06, 270 and 7mm RM with complete satisfaction. Nowadays getting an elk tag is harder than getting an elk.

 

[rclouse79]

So not having years of experience shooting rifles from 338 WM down to rimfires. His article was subjective and he was the subject.

Judging by the guys gun safe room he looked like he had many years of experience with many calibers. I just thought it was interesting was all.

 

[Justin Crossley]

A 338 Lapua can be quite comfortable to shoot if it is heavy enough and has a good break. However very few people use one. In my case I can put bullets exactly where I want them from any position with my current most powerful rifle, a 35 Whelen. Second being a 7MM RM. I generally don't notice recoil when shooting at game. If I were shooting 20 shot strings in a 3 position match then yes a 223 would be more fun to shoot. That said I used a Match M14 in 308 in a number of matches. This meaning for me anyway I have no problem with recoil under average hunting conditions. A light 338 Win Mag is my upper level of comfort. I quit using one as my elk rifle not because it kicked but because with bullets available at the time I was not getting the expansion I wanted past 400 yards. I then went through a 300 magnum phase which lasted a good while but got tired of getting in and out of trucks with it's 26 inch barrel. Went back to using a 30-06, 270 and 7mm RM with complete satisfaction. Nowadays getting an elk tag is harder than getting an elk.

You're entirely missing the point. I didn't say anything about shooting 20 rounds at a time.

It has been shown repeatedly that shooters of all skill levels shoot a rifle with less recoil better than one with more. That doesn't mean you can't shoot very accurate shots with a bigger rifle. It means you'll make accurate shots at a higher percentage with a lighter recoiling rifle.

This isn't only due to a person being "recoil sensitive." A rifle with more recoil will expose flaws in your shooting position and move the gun more during the shot.

 

[Gravel Road]

First blood for the RSS Tikka 223, 77 TMK. Rokslide lime green scope wrap for good luck-lol.
Not much of a test, as the shot was only 50 yards and he was perfectly broadside. Tucked it behind the shoulder and he ran 30 yards and tipped over. Hit a rib and made about a 2" entry into the chest cavity. Hole in the heart, lower front of lungs destroyed and a rib shard or jacket cut the liver and diaphragm. No exit but couldn't find the bullet. Surprised at the amount of bloodshot around the entrance. May have to switch back to the 308 as 223 is too destructive

 

[35WhelenAI]

A 338 Lapua can be quite comfortable to shoot if it is heavy enough and has a good break. However very few people use one. In my case I can put bullets exactly where I want them from any position with my current most powerful rifle, a 35 Whelen. Second being a 7MM RM. I generally don't notice recoil when shooting at game. If I were shooting 20 shot strings in a 3 position match then yes a 223 would be more fun to shoot. That said I used a Match M14 in 308 in a number of matches. This meaning for me anyway I have no problem with recoil under average hunting conditions. A light 338 Win Mag is my upper level of comfort. I quit using one as my elk rifle not because it kicked but because with bullets available at the time I was not getting the expansion I wanted past 400 yards. I then went through a 300 magnum phase which lasted a good while but got tired of getting in and out of trucks with it's 26 inch barrel. Went back to using a 30-06, 270 and 7mm RM with complete satisfaction. Nowadays getting an elk tag is harder than getting an elk.

 

[Gstew1930]

Shot a doe this morning with a .223 and 77 TMK. Damage was impressive. I was by myself so I didn't take any pictures. I think this thread has enough evidence this combo works great

 

[Deere_Man]

Shot a doe this morning with a .223 and 77 TMK. Damage was impressive. I was by myself so I didn't take any pictures. I think this thread has enough evidence this combo works great

I’m more interested at this point in seeing what various 55gr-65gr billets do to deer at up to 300 yards.

 

[Thegman]

62 grn Maker TRex’s first outing. Ranges 100 - 250 yds. 3100 fps. 4deer.

Entry at 200
View attachment 802168

Lungs
View attachment 802169

Blood
View attachment 802170

Exit at 250
View attachment 802179

View attachment 802181

I wasn't paying enough attention when you posted this...somehow I was thinking Hammer, not Maker.

What's your take on the Makers so far compared to the other .224 bullets you've been using? Penetration, termial performance, exits, blood trails, etc? I have some in 30 caliber to try in the HAM’R and BO, but was also curious about their .224 bullets. Were these the tipped 62s, being TRex I'd guess they were.

 

[Tahr]

I’m more interested at this point in seeing what various 55gr-65gr billets do to deer at up to 300 yards.

Ive posted about 55 grn GameKings, 60 grn Hammers, 62 grn Norma (similar to Game Kings), 62 grn Makers, 62 Gold Dots And various other under 65 grn bullets. This thread is somewhat bias towards the excellent 77 TMK, as it ought to be 'cos of the evidence, but that distracts from the fact that right across the range of .223 bullet weights there are excellent modern projectiles for all twist rates. Often enough the wound damage pics and penetration quotes from the 77TMK on here are similar and sometimes not as effective (looking) as some lighter bullets. Some lighter bullets leave more reliable blood trails and have deeper penetration.
So, while the 77TMK is the pick of the crop if you have 1:8 twist there are plenty of other lighter bullet options that are reliable and effective. Something for everyone.

 

[Tahr]

I wasn't paying enough attention when you posted this...somehow I was thinking Hammer, not Maker.

What's your take on the Makers so far compared to the other .224 bullets you've been using? Penetration, termial performance, exits, blood trails, etc? I have some in 30 caliber to try in the HAM’R and BO, but was also curious about their .224 bullets. Were these the tipped 62s, being TRex I'd guess they were.

They were the 62 grn Tipped TRex. Ive only shot 4 deer with them out to 250 (odd) yards.
Every projectile exited viciously. Good blood splatter but not necessarily a blood trail. None of them ran very far - I think 20 yards max. Internal damage looked more like a carve than a splatter (see the lung pic). E.g. the 60 grn Hammers (and the 77TMK) look like a bomb has gone off (with the Hammers 'cos of the petals flying around and with the TMK because they are frangible)) where as with the Makers it looks like something with a broad frontal area and very sharp and and very slicey has passed through.
My small sample tells me they out perform Barnes by a margin.
Using BM2 powder and 25thou off the lands they were very easy to get to shoot.
Very effective and 'cos they are half the landed price of the Hammers where I live they will be my new gig for shooting lead-free charity venison.

 

[FredH]

You're entirely missing the point. I didn't say anything about shooting 20 rounds at a time.

It has been shown repeatedly that shooters of all skill levels shoot a rifle with less recoil better than one with more. That doesn't mean you can't shoot very accurate shots with a bigger rifle. It means you'll make accurate shots at a higher percentage with a lighter recoiling rifle.

This isn't only due to a person being "recoil sensitive." A rifle with more recoil will expose flaws in your shooting position and move the gun more during the shot.

No the point you are missing is that a skilled shooter can put the first round from any rifle he is familiar with exactly where he wants it. I can. Training with heavier recoiling rifles to get to that point does take longer. When I pull the trigger shooting at an elk I am not thinking about the rifles recoil, just about placing the crosshairs in the right place and squeezing the trigger. Flaws in my shooting position? With experience you learn how to hold your rifle properly without thinking about it. The reality is that yes shooters with little experience will always shoot lighter rifles better. However light recoil does not always mean inexperienced shooters will properly place their bullets on game. As for moving the gun more during the shot this is obviously true. I have seen my bullet impact many times shooting my medium powered rifles, my 30-06 in particular. Is that because I shoot with both eyes open? Or is it because it's stock fits me perfectly? Combination of both factors?

 

[FredH]

I’m more interested at this point in seeing what various 55gr-65gr billets do to deer at up to 300 yards.

Back before there were many .224 rifles with twists faster than 1-12 I used the two 60 grain Hornady bullets available then, a HP and a sp both flat based on deer with pretty good results. I also used the 70 Speer. These bullets did not have high ballistic coefficients so I kept my shots under 200 yards. I think I only had to shoot a deer twice one time.

 

[PistolPete]

Anybody used the 60 TMKs?

60 TMK crushed this 4.5 year old buck at ~2200 impact:

22 Hornet for Deer

60 gr TMK at 2200 impact ruined this large-bodied buck's day. Busted ribs going in (slight quarter toward), destroyed one lung, went through the back of the other, through the diaphragm, into guts, no exit. He went 10 yds, but was alive for a few minutes before his head went down - presumably...

rokslide.com

 

[WestTN2288]

60 TMK crushed this 4.5 year old buck at ~2200 impact:

22 Hornet for Deer

60 gr TMK at 2200 impact ruined this large-bodied buck's day. Busted ribs going in (slight quarter toward), destroyed one lung, went through the back of the other, through the diaphragm, into guts, no exit. He went 10 yds, but was alive for a few minutes before his head went down - presumably...

rokslide.com

Thanks! I knew there had to be something around here on it

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

First blood for the RSS Tikka 223, 77 TMK. Rokslide lime green scope wrap for good luck-lol.
Not much of a test, as the shot was only 50 yards and he was perfectly broadside. Tucked it behind the shoulder and he ran 30 yards and tipped over. Hit a rib and made about a 2" entry into the chest cavity. Hole in the heart, lower front of lungs destroyed and a rib shard or jacket cut the liver and diaphragm. No exit but couldn't find the bullet. Surprised at the amount of bloodshot around the entrance. May have to switch back to the 308 as 223 is too destructive


View attachment 806418View attachment 806416View attachment 806417

I have to do the same thing to my scopes here in AZ in the summer. Nothing like grabbing a 130 degree black scope. Looks good!