.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[wesfromky]

You guys running that stuff in bolt actions with no issues?

There are some other posts out there on the 5.56 vs .223 thing, but I have a couple hundred rounds of the aac 5.56 77 otm and black hills 77tmk in my Tikka .223 with no issues.

 

[Formidilosus]

What's the word on that AAC stuff? I thought I remembered seeing a thread where the groups weren't that great compared to the Black Hills but I can't seem to search it up on my phone.

It’s lot to lot variable- some lots are very good in almost all guns; some lots are pickier and average 2 to 2.5 MOA for 10-30 shot groups.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

It’s lot to lot variable- some lots are very good in almost all guns; some lots are pickier and average 2 to 2.5 MOA for 10-30 shot groups.

Thank you. I don't reload yet so was eyeing those for the AR. I bought a bunch of factory hornady 73gr ELDM for the bolt gun in .223.

 

[The Guide]

You guys running that stuff in bolt actions with no issues?

Yes in Howa and Ruger rifles.

Jay

 

[kswaterfowl]

I've had pretty good luck with the aac stuff. I shoot the 77 gr otm at the range, and killed 2 deer with the 77 gr tmk.

 

[Truck24hr]

My guns didn't shoot the AAC TMK well. Just ran some of the 75gr Black Sabres through the chrono.

Respectable stuff, 10 shot group. Only ran 5 through the chrono.

 

[LimeSpoon]

More data:

223 77 TMK
346 yards Broadside.
Broke front leg. Heart.
Went about ten yards and dropped.
View attachment 826223


View attachment 826231

Mind if I ask the penetration on the 346 yard shot? Curious as to whether it went through the heart or more, or stopped in it.

It certainly demonstrates that an animals' liver is a mushy old thing and a hit with any caliber is most likely to be fatal. I wouldn't draw any further conclusions than that from a single instance.

Yup. The liver is sensitive to temporary cavitation that would cause very little damage to the lungs.

 

[mt terry d]

Mind if I ask the penetration on the 346 yard shot? Curious as to whether it went through the heart or more, or stopped in it.

Ask away!
I did not recover the bullet as conditions were too nasty to do any more than necessary.
As I recall I did not see any indication that it hit the ribs on the off side. As a matter of fact
I don't recall seeing an exit hole on the heart. It does appear it could still be inside the heart. I wish I had that heart but there's more to this story though.

As I said conditions were nasty and I had two cows down. By the time I got back to my truck it was late afternoon and I was whooped. Then I had a low front tire, too.
Figured I'd go home, plug the tire then chain up first thing in the morning and head up.
I suspected there might be some meat loss as there's a fair amount of coyotes around but wasn't expecting what I found. The coyotes, eagles, ravens and magpies ( by the tracks mostly the eagles) had just ravaged both elk. I was able to recover about 60% of the backstraps and just two front quarter total off both elk. It was pretty sickening.
8 adult bald eagles and 2 goldens ( and the ravens and magpies) on one carcass alone.
I wouldn't have felt quite so bad if there'd been a wolf, as I have a tag, but none nor any wolf tracks; not that I'd intentionally leave any animal as bait. I certainly don't deny their right to the gut pile.

 

[LimeSpoon]

Ask away!
I did not recover the bullet as conditions were too nasty to do any more than necessary.
As I recall I did not see any indication that it hit the ribs on the off side. As a matter of fact
I don't recall seeing an exit hole on the heart. It does appear it could still be inside the heart. I wish I had that heart but there's more to this story though.

As I said conditions were nasty and I had two cows down. By the time I got back to my truck it was late afternoon and I was whooped. Then I had a low front tire, too.
Figured I'd go home, plug the tire then chain up first thing in the morning and head up.
I suspected there might be some meat loss as there's a fair amount of coyotes around but wasn't expecting what I found. The coyotes, eagles, ravens and magpies ( by the tracks mostly the eagles) had just ravaged both elk. I was able to recover about 60% of the backstraps and just two front quarter total off both elk. It was pretty sickening.
8 adult bald eagles and 2 goldens ( and the ravens and magpies) on one carcass alone.
I wouldn't have felt quite so bad if there'd been a wolf, as I have a tag, but none nor any wolf tracks; not that I'd intentionally leave any animal as bait. I certainly don't deny their right to the gut pile.

Thanks.

Interesting that the penetration depth on the broadside shot versus the quartering shot differed as much as it did. Even if the bullet did go through the heart, I can definitely tell it's slowed down quite a bit.

I wonder if this because the bullet retains more speed when punching through bones at higher velocity. Usually you would expect penetration in flesh to decrease as impact velocity increases after a point (at least, with fragmenting hollowpoints such as TMK) but I suspect that this may not be the case if the projectile encounters thicker bone first, at least not within the normal velocity range. Someone feel free to tell me otherwise if I'm mistaken.

Given this bit of speculation I wonder if a 2100-2200 FPS velocity benchmark might not be a good idea for quartering shoulder shots on elk with 77 gr TMK. Clearly we have ample evidence that it can work well in general below that and ultimately I'm going to trust that everyone here knows their own limits, but 2200+ FPS also seems to correlate pretty well with robust penetration through scapula/humerus and completely through the chest cavity.

Sorry to hear about the meat loss, I suppose shit happens. It's the nature of nature, if you will.

 

[Thegman]

Thanks.

Interesting that the penetration depth on the broadside shot versus the quartering shot differed as much as it did. Even if the bullet did go through the heart, I can definitely tell it's slowed down quite a bit.

I wonder if this because the bullet retains more speed when punching through bones at higher velocity. Usually you would expect penetration in flesh to decrease as impact velocity increases after a point (at least, with fragmenting hollowpoints such as TMK) but I suspect that this may not be the case if the projectile encounters thicker bone first, at least not within the normal velocity range. Someone feel free to tell me otherwise if I'm mistaken.

Given this bit of speculation I wonder if a 2100-2200 FPS velocity benchmark might not be a good idea for quartering shoulder shots on elk with 77 gr TMK. Clearly we have ample evidence that it can work well in general below that and ultimately I'm going to trust that everyone here knows their own limits, but 2200+ FPS also seems to correlate pretty well with robust penetration through scapula/humerus and completely through the chest cavity.

Sorry to hear about the meat loss, I suppose shit happens. It's the nature of nature, if you will.

I don't know about retaining more speed, but I did notice on one black bear that hitting bone certainly didn't seem to limit penetration. If anything, it seemed like there could have been more penetration than other animals I've shot with the 77TMK. I was wondering if hitting bone caused the bullet to expand a little differently than just "soft" tissue and it held together longer...???

 

[mt terry d]

Shooter app says impact velocity was 2072.
I'd take a quartering to shot at 450 if I was sure of making the shot,
which is probably being a little more generous of my ability than I should be.
That'd be @1900.
As Ryan A says, it punches above it's weight class.

 

[LimeSpoon]

I don't know about retaining more speed, but I did notice on one black bear that hitting bone certainly didn't seem to limit penetration. If anything, it seemed like there could have been more penetration than other animals I've shot with the 77TMK. I was wondering if hitting bone caused the bullet to expand a little differently than just "soft" tissue and it held together longer...???

To be a bit clearer, what I meant was that perhaps higher velocity 77 gr TMKs suffer less velocity loss from hitting heavier bone than slower 77 gr TMKs, or at least they complete the process with more penetration potential remaining. Come to think of it, perhaps the pig euthanasia posts provide tentative evidence of this too…

I wouldn’t put it past some handgun JHPs or maybe even a TSX to see increased penetration (versus muscle tissue) after encountering bone owing to a failure to expand, but I definitely wouldn’t expect that from fragmenting rifle JHPs or most SPs. Weird things can happen during projectile-tissue interactions, of course.

 

[np307]

75gr gold dots available on Natchez

 

[JJ3]

75gr gold dots available on Natchez

Gone

 

[Tahr]

390 yards. Model 7 .223. 1:9 twist. Berger jacketed custom 74 grn. 2950 fps. Staggered less than 10 yards. Pic of rib entry with shoulder peeled back.

 

[np307]

Gone

Wow. I picked up several boxes, been looking forward to trying them.

 

[JohnDough]

I really do think the 1-7" twist helps with keeping these long projectiles on the straight penetration path and the Xtra rpm throws extra shrapnel causing more damage.

Twist rate greatly improves expansion of monometal bullets. Not a huge deal with soft points.

 

[Castle Rock]

Not a huge deal with soft points.

It makes a real difference to conventional bullets

 

[sneaky]

I know this has been rehashed over and over, and this question has been answered 200 times probably already. I'm outta screen time and trying to decide.

I've got an ID elk and deer tag. Looks like no caliber minimums.

I've spent a thousand bucks in the last month trying different loads in my 300 WM and 7RM. I'm accurate enough to about 400 yards right now. But if 4-500 yards ends up my max, what do I gain over the 223/5.56?

My 5.56 bolt gun is very accurate with both 73 eldm's and 77 TMK's. Both with factory ammo. I do reload, but don't enjoy it. I have plenty of componets to load the 77 TMK, and assume I could beat factory offering velocities I've seen.

I ran the ELD M and TMK through Bergers Calculator.

I'm really struggling with this right now, and want to dedicate my range time to one rifle. My free time is very limited, and I feel like I'm going in circles.

I can afford a new rifle/barrel if I should change caliber.View attachment 824587View attachment 824588

You won't be hunting at zero feet of elevation anywhere in Idaho. I'd fix those numbers first and look at the specs. Seems pretty slow at 100 for the 73s at first glance

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[The Guide]

You won't be hunting at zero feet of elevation anywhere in Idaho. I'd fix those numbers first and look at the specs. Seems pretty slow at 100 for the 73s at first glance

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

While you're not wrong about the elevation, depending upon the barrel length that 100 yard velocity might be close. My 16" RAR shoots the Factory 73eldm ammo at 2534 mv and at 4000' the 100 yard velocity is 2320 fps. I haven't run that ammo in any other of my 223 rifles so I can't give speeds on longer barrels. Short barreled 223 rifles aren't the best for open country hunting but can get you close to 400 yards depending upon elevation.

Jay