.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[SBR Sarge]

For the sake of arguement... at what distance does a .223 create a wound equivalent to an arrow wound, assuming an appropriate bullet is used? I doubt I could shoot that far reliably.

It’d be hard to get a fair comparison. A broadhead and a bullet do different things. An arrow kills by cutting. A bullet impact causes damage differently.

 

[Formidilosus]

It’d be hard to get a fair comparison. A broadhead and a bullet do different things. An arrow kills by cutting. A bullet impact causes damage differently.

It’s a bit of a misnomer to say that. Bullets kill the same “way” that broadheads due- by damaging and destroying tissue. While a broadheads only wounding mechanisms are penetrating and cutting; bullet do both of those as well as crushing, stretching, bruising, etc causing temporary stretch cavities and cavitation. I don’t what impact velocity a good bullet such as the 77gr TMK matches a normal fixed blade broadhead- say a Slick Trick, because we haven’t found it yet- at least down to 1,500fps impact. Most bullets it will be around 1,800fps impact, and copper monos aren’t 2,000-2,200fps impact.

 

[Pharmseller]

Stand1

Holy Hostess HoHos, $34 for a box of 20 .223?




P

 

[BLJ]

All I can say is that the physical properties of the gun must have changed for a split second and then changed back, because there's no way I could've jerked one.

Happens to me all the time. I can’t explain it either.
If I had a quarter for every time myself or one of my buddies have yanked one and quoted Super Troopers, I’d have a lot of quarters.

 

[TexasHTR]

Is the frontier 75gr bthp actually a 5.56? What's the best price commonly available on these? I'm only seeing about 0.90-1.00/round

The lots I’ve had have been pretty spicy. Also pretty effective on hogs but haven’t taken any shots over 300 yds with them at animals.

 

[PNWGATOR]

That's just bad shooting

If you think the wounding rate would go down with everybody packing a .223 and taking shots at distances they'd never dream of taking with a bow, we do not think the same thing.

Have you read the thread completely from post one?

 

[wind gypsy]

Well the latest non- believer did bring us back to posts from 2019 and I got to read about Pat Sinclair not killing stuff past 200 yards so that was fun to read again.

 

[treydfoster]

I don't normally engage in this type of stuff....but you need to expand your knowledge of wound rates with archery tackle if you don't think wound rates would go down by a MASSIVE amount if using any centerfire compared to a bow.

Personally, I'd never dream of shooting anything at 100 yards with a bow. So, based on your thought process, my wound rate would NOT go down by shooting a critter at 100 (or even 200) yds with a 223 when compared to me shooting same critter with a bow at say...60-70 yds? That is asinine.

If you think below average joe isn't going to take a crack at over 200 yards (or whatever is beyond his shooting capability) you're wrong. We can say "personally" "I would never" etc all day long. More people are going to get to take a crack at an animal that would never even have the opportunity to let an arrow go.

 

[Nomosendero]

Oh, well that settles it!

 

[treydfoster]

Well the latest non- believer did bring us back to posts from 2019 and I got to read about Pat Sinclair not killing stuff past 200 yards so that was fun to read again.

You're welcome.

 

[treydfoster]

Have you read the thread completely from post one?

Nope, gonna have to be here awhile.

 

[fwafwow]

If you think below average joe isn't going to take a crack at over 200 yards (or whatever is beyond his shooting capability) you're wrong. We can say "personally" "I would never" etc all day long. More people are going to get to take a crack at an animal that would never even have the opportunity to let an arrow go.

Welcome to Rokslide!

I am not exactly clear on what you are saying. I think the thread is about 223 - with the right projectile - being adequate for more game than was thought historically. My belief was that this hypothesis was largely in comparison to other (larger) rifle calibers, and other bullets. From my perspective, Average Joe might not take a shot past 100-150 yards with a 30-30, but if he got a 300 Win Mag (as an example), he would then think he could shoot much farther - and easily (at least in his mind) over 200 yards. One point of the thread is that said Average Joe is more likely to hit, and kill, an animal with the 223 and heavy for caliber bullets at those ranges.

So, serious question and not trying to stir the pot - what does the 223 hypothesis have to do with archery hunting, since I think most rifle hunters (regardless of caliber) believe they can shoot a rifle much farther than they would shoot an arrow?

 

[ElPollo]

If you think below average joe isn't going to take a crack at over 200 yards (or whatever is beyond his shooting capability) you're wrong. We can say "personally" "I would never" etc all day long. More people are going to get to take a crack at an animal that would never even have the opportunity to let an arrow go.

Read first. Trust me. You will find this 223/TMK combo does a lot more damage than you think it should. It’s actually a solid option for big game way further than 200 yards. Reading this thread will challenge a lot of your preconceived notions about energy, bullet diameter and mass. It presents a lot of actual results from the field. That is something you rarely find related to ballistics. Most of what we think we know about ballistics is just stuff people have said for decades with no actual data. The final message of this thread isn’t that a 223 is magic. It’s that bullet diameter and mass have less impact on bullet performance than bullet design, and big heavy recoiling cartridges are not needed 99.99% of the time.

 

[treydfoster]

Welcome to Rokslide!

I am not exactly clear on what you are saying. I think the thread is about 223 - with the right projectile - being adequate for more game than was thought historically. My belief was that this hypothesis was largely in comparison to other (larger) rifle calibers, and other bullets. From my perspective, Average Joe might not take a shot past 100-150 yards with a 30-30, but if he got a 300 Win Mag (as an example), he would then think he could shoot much farther - and easily (at least in his mind) over 200 yards. One point of the thread is that said Average Joe is more likely to hit, and kill, an animal with the 223 and heavy for caliber bullets at those ranges.

So, serious question and not trying to stir the pot - what does the 223 hypothesis have to do with archery hunting, since I think most rifle hunters (regardless of caliber) believe they can shoot a rifle much farther than they would shoot an arrow?

Thanks, glad to be here.

I was responding to the comment about how we would all lose our minds if people were allowed to carry .223 as an alternative to archery methods during archery season, and how if that happened kill rates would go up and wounding rates would go down. I understand that archery wound rates are high, but my hypothesis is that they would probably go up if we allowed .223 to be carried, based on frequency of available shot opportunities and what people are willing to sling.

With a bow most people aren't going to launch an arrow at an elk 100 yards away, but with a .223 I think a larger percentage of hunters would be willing to attempt shots at sub optimal distances and angles. Additionally, I don't think you would have as many clean misses as you do with archery equipment. To be clear, I do appreciate that archery wound rates are high.

 

[treydfoster]

Read first. Trust me. You will find this 223/TMK combo does a lot more damage than you think it should. It’s actually a solid option for big game way further than 200 yards. Reading this thread will challenge a lot of your preconceived notions about energy, bullet diameter and mass. It presents a lot of actual results from the field. That is something you rarely find related to ballistics. Most of what we think we know about ballistics is just stuff people have said for decades with no actual data. The final message of this thread isn’t that a 223 is magic. It’s that bullet diameter and mass have less impact on bullet performance than bullet design, and big heavy recoiling cartridges are not needed 99.99% of the time.

Yeah but that's not what my comment was in response to. My comment is on what would happen to wound rates if we let people carry .223 as an alternative to archery tackle during archery season. I think wound rates would increase based on peoples willingness to take far/severe angled shots and lack of clean misses. I haven't knocked the .223 or TMK combo.

 

[ElPollo]

Yeah but that's not what my comment was in response to. My comment is on what would happen to wound rates if we let people carry .223 as an alternative to archery tackle during archery season. I think wound rates would increase based on peoples willingness to take far/severe angled shots and lack of clean misses. I haven't knocked the .223 or TMK combo.

Worrying about what other people might do is a futile undertaking. But there is nothing in this thread that remotely puts the 223/TMK combo on par with bows. And if you read you will find that the combo is a reliable choice on big game to 1800 fps and beyond. That puts it at >400 yards even with a short barrel. Comparing the 223 to a bow is frankly nonsense and the argument of replacing one with the other just seems to be an effort to troll people. If I’m wrong in your intent, I apologize. Either way, there’s a lot of good info in this thread if you choose to read it. And if you don’t, posting hypothetical regulatory scenarios would be best served by their own thread.

 

[fwafwow]

Thanks, glad to be here.

I was responding to the comment about how we would all lose our minds if people were allowed to carry .223 as an alternative to archery methods during archery season, and how if that happened kill rates would go up and wounding rates would go down. I understand that archery wound rates are high, but my hypothesis is that they would probably go up if we allowed .223 to be carried, based on frequency of available shot opportunities and what people are willing to sling.

I may have missed this concern, but I personally think it's a red herring. No one is suggesting anything with respect to archery and 223.

With a bow most people aren't going to launch an arrow at an elk 100 yards away, but with a .223 I think a larger percentage of hunters would be willing to attempt shots at sub optimal distances and angles. Additionally, I don't think you would have as many clean misses as you do with archery equipment. To be clear, I do appreciate that archery wound rates are high.

I guess I'm still not following. Comparing archery distances, hit rates and wound rates to any rifle, at least in this thread, is at best a tangent - imho.

 

[Wapiti151]

Yeah but that's not what my comment was in response to. My comment is on what would happen to wound rates if we let people carry .223 as an alternative to archery tackle during archery season. I think wound rates would increase based on peoples willingness to take far/severe angled shots and lack of clean misses. I haven't knocked the .223 or TMK combo.

Would they take farther or more extreme shots than they already do with 6mm, 6.5, 308, etc...my bet is they'd probably not take as far or as extreme shots than these other calibers, being more attentive to the round's limitations...and they'd take those shots and shoot them with more accuracy. This thread proves that terminal performance is equal or greater than a lot of those other calibers with the right bullet choice and at the right velocity. The hit rate is going to go up dramatically from those other calibers, and if you read this entire thread, your mind will be changed. Comparing a 77TMK to a bow/arrow is once again, asinine. Not to mention the countless things that can go wrong with a bow after that arrow is released...and you think people practice with a bow enough to be effective, or that they don't take shots they shouldn't? It is the responsibility of the hunter to take effective and ethical shots at game, and even more importantly to know their own limitations. Let's keep the argument focused on these reasonable and ethical hunters...because the second you start talking about unethical shots beyond one's limitations with a rifle, the same exact thing can be said about sticks and strings.

and for transparency sake, I have not shot a big game animal with a 223...YET. But I also am not seeing the entire chest cavity of a critter turn to jelly after being hit with a broadhead.

 

[treydfoster]

Worrying about what other people might do is a futile undertaking. But there is nothing in this thread that remotely puts the 223/TMK combo on par with bows. And if you read you will find that the combo is a reliable choice on big game to 1800 fps and beyond. That puts it at >400 yards even with a short barrel. Comparing the 223 to a bow is frankly nonsense and the argument of replacing one with the other just seems to be an effort to troll people. If I’m wrong in your intent, I apologize. Either way, there’s a lot of good info in this thread if you choose to read it. And if you don’t, posting hypothetical regulatory scenarios would be best served by their own thread.

I was responding to someone else's scenario that they posted on this thread, so yeah, you're wrong, apology accepted though.

 

[treydfoster]

Would they take farther or more extreme shots than they already do with 6mm, 6.5, 308, etc...my bet is they'd probably not take as far or as extreme shots than these other calibers, being more attentive to the round's limitations...and they'd take those shots and shoot them with more accuracy. This thread proves that terminal performance is equal or greater than a lot of those other calibers with the right bullet choice and at the right velocity. The hit rate is going to go up dramatically from those other calibers, and if you read this entire thread, your mind will be changed. Comparing a 77TMK to a bow/arrow is once again, asinine. Not to mention the countless things that can go wrong with a bow after that arrow is released...and you think people practice with a bow enough to be effective, or that they don't take shots they shouldn't? It is the responsibility of the hunter to take effective and ethical shots at game, and even more importantly to know their own limitations. Let's keep the argument focused on these reasonable and ethical hunters...because the second you start talking about unethical shots beyond one's limitations with a rifle, the same exact thing can be said about sticks and strings.

and for transparency sake, I have not shot a big game animal with a 223...YET. But I also am not seeing the entire chest cavity of a critter turn to jelly after being hit with a

I may have missed this concern, but I personally think it's a red herring. No one is suggesting anything with respect to archery and 223.

I guess I'm still not following. Comparing archery distances, hit rates and wound rates to any rifle, at least in this thread, is at best a tangent - imho.

Look bro, I didn't come up with the scenario, just replied.