223: cci400 vs cci450 vs cci41 vs BR4

[Chris_in_Idaho]

In searching through 223 load threads I see some people using standard SR primers and some people using magnum SR primers, but I haven't found any direct comparisons.

Has anyone evaluated the various primer options and found there's one that gives better or more consistent performance?

This would be for 223 with 73-77 grain bullets shot from a Tikka. This rifle will be used in temperatures from -10°f to 100°f.

 

[Juan_ID]

I voted makes no difference but I’ve only used fed sr match, cci400 and cci450’s. Have landed on 450s because I found a good deal on 5k cases and wanted to buy one primer and use them in all my rifles. I’ve used them in 223 6arc 6.5 creed and haven't had any issues, don’t know if I’ve ever shot any in -10* but definitely in the single digits and close to 100* in the summer.

 

[SamsonMan22]

I’m of the opinion it doesn’t matter much. I have used cci 450s the most and had the most issues with them. I have had a lot that needed a second hit and quite a few that never went bang. I have shot around 8000 worth of the cci400s and had zero issues with them even at 5.56 pressures. My avg velocity was actually 10fps higher using the 400s when I tested them side by side with the 450. I don’t have enough experience with the br4 to draw any conclusions but they seemed to be just about like the other 2 accuracy wise and always went bang for the 1000 I used.

I haven’t used any cci41s but have just started using the Winchester 41s in my 6.5cm and so far I have been getting along fine with them from 0-50 degree weather, I will most likely proceed with these for the 223 once I use up my supply of 450s because I see them readily available.

I have also used some 7 1/2 Remingtons with the 223 and they are working well, so are these cheaper fiocchi I’m shooting right now. All of these have been used with various stick and ball powders in the 223, the cci450 and win 41 have only been used with h4350 in my 6.5cm. All have been used from -10 to 90ish degrees except the win 41 and fiocchi they have only see the 0-50 degree range so far.

 

[Ddubs20]

I agree with the above statements. I have a CZ bolt gun that won't strike the cci450's hard enough, and my ar has slamfires with the cci400's.

 

[willfrye027]

For 223 I would say whatever you can get cheapest

 

[sierracharlie338]

With the current state of primer/reloading stuff being so hard to find consistently just use what you can find. You wont see a measurable difference in that platform for the distances it will be shot at game.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I agree with the above statements. I have a CZ bolt gun that won't strike the cci450's hard enough, and my ar has slamfires with the cci400's.

The above statements were that it makes no difference, but your reply sounds like it does matter since you've had both failures to fire and slamfires.

 

[willfrye027]

The above statements were that it makes no difference, but your reply sounds like it does matter since you've had both failures to fire and slamfires.

The CCI 41 is supposedly a 450 with a thicker cup to prevent slam fires in ARs. In a tikka bolt gun I can’t imagine you would have a problem with any SR primer..personally shooting CCI 400s now in mine, also have a case of fed 205s to shoot next, and a bunch of CCI41 and 450s that mostly get used in my creedmoor sized cases.

 

[SamsonMan22]

The CCI 41 is supposedly a 450 with a thicker cup to prevent slam fires in ARs. In a tikka bolt gun I can’t imagine you would have a problem with any SR primer..personally shooting CCI 400s now in mine, also have a case of fed 205s to shoot next, and a bunch of CCI41 and 450s that mostly get used in my creedmoor sized cases.

The problems I have had with the cci450s have been in tikka bolt guns both 223 and 6.5cm. They havent been consistent it seems like a random brick will give problems. The last brick I loaded with would average 6-8 light strikes per hundred and 2-3 per hundred that wouldn’t go bang. Several bricks before that gave no issue, some previous had a few light strikes here and there. I’m sure it was just a bad run on them but still an issue none the less.

 

[willfrye027]

The problems I have had with the cci450s have been in tikka bolt guns both 223 and 6.5cm. They havent been consistent it seems like a random brick will give problems. The last brick I loaded with would average 6-8 light strikes per hundred and 2-3 per hundred that wouldn’t go bang. Several bricks before that gave no issue, some previous had a few light strikes here and there. I’m sure it was just a bad run on them but still an issue none the less.

Interesting, I’ve only shot about 1000 of them but haven’t had an issue yet.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I wonder if the 205 & 205M might be sort of the goldilocks zone with their .0225" cup?

I just fell down the rabbit hole reading about primers last night and this morning.

From what I'm gathering (from reading, not first hand experience), the cci400 has the thinnest cup at .020" and is intended for old school lower pressure rifle rounds. I have read the "up to 40,000psi" recommendation in more than one place as well as many accounts of them being pierced.

The BR4, 450, and #41 all have a thicker .025" cup, and additionally the #41 has more space between the cup and anvil to help prevent slam fires. Heat wise, the BR4 is cooler, and the #41 and 450 are hotter (not sure if they're the same compound or not). I have read accounts including in this thread of light strikes with 450s in Tikkas.

The Fed 205 & 205M have a .0225" cup, half way between the two cci options. The M apparently get an extra visual inspection, no physical difference.

I guess my preference would be to try the #41s first. I also have ARs and it would be nice if my handloads were appropriate for all my rifles rather than specific to the Tikka. So, if the Tikka will set them off 100% of the time it seems like they will handle all tasks. They might also be the hardest to ignite between the thick cup and the anti-slamfire internal geometry.

Just judging by Midway prices the BR4, 41, 450, 205 and 205M all seem to be within a cent of each other.

 

[Juan_ID]

The problems I have had with the cci450s have been in tikka bolt guns both 223 and 6.5cm. They havent been consistent it seems like a random brick will give problems. The last brick I loaded with would average 6-8 light strikes per hundred and 2-3 per hundred that wouldn’t go bang. Several bricks before that gave no issue, some previous had a few light strikes here and there. I’m sure it was just a bad run on them but still an issue none the less.

That is interesting, I probably would have reached out to cci. At this point I have shot about 5-6k cci450s through the 3 calibers listed above in 5 different tikka’s and yet to have one not go bang on the first trigger pull. And that’s through multiple different lots of primers. Maybe I’ve just gotten lucky

 

[SamsonMan22]

I could have just had a bum lot, for the most part they have done ok for me. I thought maybe I was having firing pin troubles but I took the bolt apart on both and cleaned them and still had the same problems, tried them in my wife’s tikka 223 and same thing. Other than that I haven’t had any trouble with primers going bang every time except for 2 cci 250s in a 7 rem mag they were both duds.

In the 223 I’m not sure you can really go wrong on a primer but what is available, my situation could be a unique one and I wouldn’t tell anyone to stop buying 450s because of it…. I didn’t.

 

[FB Trout]

I’ve used both CCI 400 and 450s, without an issue with either. I prefer the 450, generally because of the thicker cup, but haven’t pierced a 400 either, in multiple Tikka .223s, but I’m loading excessively hot, either. I also haven’t had any light strikes with the 450s, with multiple lots. During the last component shortage, 450s were easier for me to find, so that’s what I bought up. Interestingly, with the same charge of IMR 8208, 23.6 grains when a 77 TMK, and same Norma brass, I was seeing 20 or so fps faster with 400s….

 

[FB Trout]

I’m sorry, I meant to say I’m NOT loading excessively hot….

 

[Marbles]

CCI 400s have a thin cup and prone to pierced primers. Same with Remington 6-1/6. They are made for low pressure rounds like the 22 hornet.

Federal 205s are in between 400s/6-1/2s and 450s/BR4s/41s; 205s are the minimum I would use for a 223. Federal says they are good for 5.56, so I don't think there is much worry. Clearly 400s can work, but safety margin is nice with 55,000 PSI next to my face.

Otherwise I'm not sure it matters. Though I lack the experience to have my opinion be more than reading the thoughts of others.

 

[Finaddictions]

When using ball powders, which are notoriously harder to ignite, a hotter primer can make a difference. I use Tac, and in my experience with quite a few different 223 loads 450’s give me very consistent loads compared to 400’s.

 

[wind gypsy]

Back when 450s used to be the same price as 400s or at least within a penny/ea i bought a bunch of them so they get used for most anything.

Seeing 205s and 400s for 8 cents/ea vs 450s @ 12c ea now so I'd probably try them for 223s especially if not using ball powders.

 

[Firth]

Other than needing to adjust a powder charge (slightly) to deal with a milder or hotter primer, I haven't seen a difference in 223. I generally use standard primers with stick powders and magnum primers with ball powders but it doesn't seem to me like the 223 has enough powder for it to matter. When I've tested different primers, accuracy has been close enough for me to not see a difference. Maybe I'm just not a good enough shot. I loaded lots of CCI 400 in AR-15's until I found out that was discouraged. I never had a problem there either, but I don't see any reason to push my luck, so I switched.

 

[HighUintas]

@willfrye027 and @SamsonMan22 , you both note you're using cci400 without issue. What pressures do you think your loads are for these? Close to 60k psi?

I've been looking into it and some people have issues with light strikes in Tikkas and some have issues with pierced primers. In looking into firing pin protrusion, some people measure 0.55 and some up to 0.75. I know it's a combo of how much headspace you have on the cartridge vs firing pin fall and protrusion.

I've measured mine at 0.73.

Would either of you care to measure your pin protrusion on your Tikka bolt that seems to work fine with CCI 400? Trying to decide if I want to test them or not.

Cci tech support said to me in email when asking about Creedmoor and 308 srp cases that the preferred primer is BR4 and 450. They didn't advise against using 400