.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[FredH]

Nice! Do you have a thread going where you will track this? Would love to follow along.

The barrel, gas block , bolt, gas tube are in the mail. Waiting impatiently.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Well I don't shoot past the point where the wind will move my bullet more than 1 inch per MPH or beyond the point my bullet is going less than 2000 fps. What you are saying is you are willing to take shots beyond your personal capabilities. If you don't know within 6 inches of where your bullet will land you should not take the shot. And yes I have shot many rounds at targets past 600 yards. I treat game animals with more respect than paper or steel. You should also.

You’re going to tell me you’ve never missed? Or didn’t hit exactly where you wanted to? Because if so, then you broke your own code of ethics: shooting “beyond your capabilities”

My personal ethics are as follows: I will only shoot if/when I do so believing the shot is lethal and the animal will die. There is no fixed numbers I put on that, except adequate impact velocity for my bullet to upset. All depends on conditions, wind, how stable I can get, how the animal is behaving, ect. But I’m not perfect. Therefore, I want to spot my impact.

You know what has allowed me to be significantly more confident/lethal in field conditions in real life conditions on big game? Shooting low recoiling cartridges. More practice, less flinching, more understanding of how the wind affects bullet trajectory, ect.

If you’re seriously arguing that spotting impacts doesn’t matter, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FredH]

Ok, Im not saying there is anything wrong with a 308. My main elk rifle over the last couple years has been a 300 ultra at least until my 257 gets rebareled. I love that rifle and have taken alot of elk with it but I dont for 1 second feel that the recoil from it is an absolute disadvantage over the 25cal. You asked a question and I gave you a factual response, you want to argue against facts with subjective emotions and preferences. In the future, dont ask a question if you arent prepared to get a truthful answer back

A 300 Ultramag does put out significant recoil. In your case the question becomes why if you have used that rifle would you consider the recoil of a 308 any issue at all. I asked a question and you have failed to come up with a quantifiable reason the recoil from a 308 is a serious negative. I made no comment regarding subjective emotion or preferences. You answered with subjective emotion and preference.

 

[FredH]

You’re going to tell me you’ve never missed? Or didn’t hit exactly where you wanted to? Because if so, then you broke your own code of ethics: shooting “beyond your capabilities”

My personal ethics are as follows: I will only shoot if/when I do so believing the shot is lethal and the animal will die. There is no fixed numbers I put on that. All depends on conditions, wind, how stable I can get, how the animal is behaving, ect. But I’m not perfect. Therefore, I want to spot my impact.

You know what has allowed me to be significantly more confident/lethal in field conditions in real life conditions on big game? Shooting low recoiling cartridges. More practice, less flinching, more understanding of how the wind affects bullet trajectory, ect.

If you’re seriously arguing that spotting impacts doesn’t matter, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What you are saying is spotting impacts is important enough in your shooting that recovery of the game animal shot at could depend on it. Spotting impacts even with a light recoiling rifle is not 100 percent possible with every shot. If spotting impacts was so important to me in that respect I would reassess my shooting abilities.

 

[bmart2622]

A 300 Ultramag does put out significant recoil. In your case the question becomes why if you have used that rifle would you consider the recoil of a 308 any issue at all. I asked a question and you have failed to come up with a quantifiable reason the recoil from a 308 is a serious negative. I made no comment regarding subjective emotion or preferences. You answered with subjective emotion and preference.

I'll try and make this more clear so you understand!!! Ive never said that 308 recoil is an issue, what I have said is that a 308 has more recoil than a 223, which is a fact and its also a fact that you can shoot lower recoiling rifles more accurately. Ive answered multiple times but you dont seem to understand or agree with the answer...big difference from me not answering to your lack of understanding

 

[Firestone]

If you’re seriously arguing that spotting impacts doesn’t matter, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

if spotting shots is big for you, you may want to just stay with 6mm. I know for me it's harder spotting impacts with 22cals compared to 6mms.

 

[Jake Larsen]

if spotting shots is big for you, you may want to just stay with 6mm. I know for me it's harder spotting impacts with 22cals compared to 6mms.

What cartridges in what base rifle weights/configurations are you comparing?

Asking because the ft lbs of recoil difference between say the 22Creed vs 6Creed would almost certainly mean a 22 would be easier to spot impacts, all things being equal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Firestone]

True. But the smaller bullets typically leave smaller splashes on whatever they hit. So if you are already seeing every impact with a 6 creed, the 22 creed may make it tougher. I think that's why majority of the prs guys shoot 6mm or larger.

 

[eoperator]

When I pull the trigger, whether I see the bullet impact or not is immaterial because I know where it went.

If you are good enough to know where your bullet hits without seeing it you should not be "slumming it " with schlub's like me.

 

[HandgunHTR]

So there are no bullet failures? It is either poor manufacturing, bad shot, or the wrong bullet was used? Is this just your opinion or is there data to support this?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I am going to try to sum it up a bit. I believe he was saying that "bullet failure", while an objective term, is based solely on each individuals criteria, therefore when combined into a population of more than one, there are too many variables to consider. In the case of this particular thread, if we combined all of the criteria that constitutes bullet failure that has been listed (no exit, over expansion, under expansion, no fragmenting, too much fragmenting, exiting the animal, etc) we end up in a situation where every bullet made fails regularly. Which then leads to the removal of variables to "get better results" and we end up in the "there is no bullet failure" area.

 

[JGRaider]

IMO, a bullet "failure" occurs when a particular bullet doesn't perform they way it was designed to perform whether it kills something or not.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Yes the animal gets a vote. If you are shooting at an animal far enough away that time of flight is long enough for the animal to move enough to take the impact out of the vital zone you are shooting at than you are shooting too far. One should only take shots at game animals where the variables under your control are the ones that count.

What shots exactly? Hard quartering shots at close range. The kind you often get when hunting in thick brush.

It's not just time of flight.

I will use the example you posted because I hunt in thick bush often as well. In my scenario, you are still hunting through an area that was clear cut about 10 years ago. It has patches of very thick cover with well worn trails and open areas. Great place for deer. It has recently rained or snowed, so you can move very quietly. You are hunting into the wind. As you work your way down a trail, you come around a small bend, and 50 yards away there is a buck standing there, hard quartering to. You see each other at the same time. You freeze. He continues to stare at you. After about 30 seconds a doe walks by on a path about 40 yards away. The buck turns his attention to her, giving you the opportunity to slowly take a knee and bring your gun up. He starts following the doe, and stops in a little window at about 45 yards. Do you take the shot? If you do, you know with absolute certainty that he isn't going to take a step as you break the shot?

I used that scenario because it is one that I was in myself a few years back in GA. I was using a 7-08. Do you want to know where I hit the deer?

As to the shots that you wouldn't take with a .22 caliber cartridge. There are many examples of animals being killed effectively with those types of shots. In my experience, heavy slow bullets in small chamberings are about the best for those types of shots.

 

[deerhunter628]

IMO, a bullet "failure" occurs when a particular bullet doesn't perform they way it was designed to perform whether it kills something or not.

So like somebody posted earlier most of the bullets that are being discussed can not fail? Most of the bullets being discussed are match bullets which the manufacturers say are not designed to be hunted with.

 

[deerhunter628]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I am going to try to sum it up a bit. I believe he was saying that "bullet failure", while an objective term, is based solely on each individuals criteria, therefore when combined into a population of more than one, there are too many variables to consider. In the case of this particular thread, if we combined all of the criteria that constitutes bullet failure that has been listed (no exit, over expansion, under expansion, no fragmenting, too much fragmenting, exiting the animal, etc) we end up in a situation where every bullet made fails regularly. Which then leads to the removal of variables to "get better results" and we end up in the "there is no bullet failure" area.

So you are saying that since there are too many variables to define bullet failure we should just eliminate all the variables and say bullets do not fail?

 

[FredH]

If you are good enough to know where your bullet hits without seeing it you should not be "slumming it " with schlub's like me.

If you are not good enough to know where your bullet is going when you pull the trigger you should practice more or shoot within the boundaries of your shooting abilities, the point where you are sure the first shot is going to hit where you plan on it hitting.

 

[FredH]

I'll try and make this more clear so you understand!!! Ive never said that 308 recoil is an issue, what I have said is that a 308 has more recoil than a 223, which is a fact and its also a fact that you can shoot lower recoiling rifles more accurately. Ive answered multiple times but you dont seem to understand or agree with the answer...big difference from me not answering to your lack of understanding

The point being the recoil from either round will not effect where my rounds impact. Yes if I were firing 100 shot strings the 308 would become tiresome before the 223. I can shoot under MOA groups easily with either for the first 40 rounds. When it comes to hunting deer recoil with either is a non issue.

 

[Ucsdryder]

It’s much easier to educate with actual shooting. Everyone on the internet is the best shooter in the world.

With hundreds of folks as examples, of all skill ranges, in real life, in real western hunting shooting scenarios, there isn’t a single person yet who shoots a .308 better than they shoot a .223.

What are these “western hunting shooting scenarios” I keep hearing about?

Would you say, by your logic, that someone would shoot a 22LR better? Then, the argument becomes a balance of performance and shootability right?

In my opinion this whole thing has gone too far. It’s a balance. Shoot ability and kill ability. Does a 300nmi with 245s kill better than a 22br with 75eldx? The andwer is yes, don’t give me that bs about dead is dead. Is a 22br with 75 eldm easier to shoot accurately, the answer is yes. These are 2 “extremes”, so why can’t we agree that for “most shooters” a 6.5cm, give or take, is a great round, and should be the recommended round. The vast majority of people can shoot a suppressed 6.5cm and spot shots all day long, so why take it farther into the weeds with these baby cartridges?

Out of the 12 animals I’ve been present for that were shot this year, 1 was seated with trigger sticks and a pack under the shoulder, shot at 75 yards. The other 11 were prone, all on elk, deer, or antelope in the west. I just don’t buy into this shooting position bs, unless you’re talking about those dimwits that wander through bedding areas in the middle of the day trying to jump elk from their beds and shoot them running through the trees.

Shout out to my 13 year old daughter. All 80 pounds of her. She had a follow up shot on an elk a few weeks back that she already hit. The elk laid down in tall grass after a high shoulder shot. The only thing showing was its head. Getting closer would have risked spooking it and the shot would have been offhand due to the height of the brush. The decision was made to take the shot, then prepare for a follow up body shot if she missed. She took a prone shot off a spartan bipod and rear bag and hit it in the head at 416 yards. This was with a suppressed 7saum shooting 180eldms, which apparently is way too much gun for a lot of people on here!

 

[Billogna]

If you are not good enough to know where your bullet is going when you pull the trigger you should practice more or shoot within the boundaries of your shooting abilities, the point where you are sure the first shot is going to hit where you plan on it hitting.

So then I have to ask. How small of a cone of fire or "group" is sufficient for "knowing where the bullet is going"? Someone might read what you wrote and their definition of success is a pie plate at 100 yards, which is approximately "minute of deer vitals"

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

What are these “western hunting shooting scenarios” I keep hearing about?

Come on down to AZ and shoot this winter! We can replicate some real world shots and have some fun.

Would you say, by your logic, that someone would shoot a 22LR better? Then, the argument becomes a balance of performance and shootability right?

Yes. Anyone who shoots a 22LR or 17HMR etc, they are more accurate with it across the board.

In my opinion this whole thing has gone too far. It’s a balance. Shoot ability and kill ability. Does a 300nmi with 245s kill better than a 22br with 75eldx? The andwer is yes, don’t give me that bs about dead is dead. Is a 22br with 75 eldm easier to shoot accurately, the answer is yes. These are 2 “extremes”, so why can’t we agree that for “most shooters” a 6.5cm, give or take, is a great round, and should be the recommended round. The vast majority of people can shoot a suppressed 6.5cm and spot shots all day long, so why take it farther into the weeds with these baby cartridges?

Because in real life shooting, when put to the test in large numbers using timed shots to help simulate a bit of adrenaline, the amount of guys and gals who can put the bullet out of a 300NMI or even a 6.5CM in the proper spot is shockingly low.

Again speaking about shots “not on a bench” with a moving animal that blends into terrain. When you take the user down in bullet diameter and recoil and make the rifle a simple “point and shoot and watch things die through the scope” gun the amount of “high shots” “low shots” “gut shots” and “clean misses” goes WAY down.

I do agree that 6.5CM is a great cartridge. I’ve shot variations of 6.5s since the late 90s with excellent success. Saying it’s a “better choice” than say an 80 ELDX or 88 ELDM out of 22CM I disagree with. Run the numbers on your favorite factory load 6.5CM against the bullets I just mentioned, looking at down range impact velocity, full value wind drift, etc. You’ll find that killing ability might surprise you in how close they are.

I don’t have any experience with a 75 ELDX out of a 22br. I have experience with 80 ELDX out of a 22CM and would reach for that gun over any of my current 6.5s out to around 850ish yards.

Out of the 12 animals I’ve been present for that were shot this year, 1 was seated with trigger sticks and a pack under the shoulder, shot at 75 yards. The other 11 were prone, all on elk, deer, or antelope in the west. I just don’t buy into this shooting position bs, unless you’re talking about those dimwits that wander through bedding areas in the middle of the day trying to jump elk from their beds and shoot them running through the trees.

So I’ve actually killed 12 big animals since September with my 22 Creedmoor. Tracking yardage, impact velocity, shooting position, animal distance travelled after being hit. “Getting prone” where and how I’ve hunted in 5 states so far would have led to missed kills. The kill list for this season so far is below… would you say that a 300NMI would have made me more successful? If you had asked me that 10-12 years ago before I started using 6mm and 6.5mm for big game I would have said yes.

1. Bull Moose: Yardage: 523. Impact Velocity: 2,180. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: What most would call "high shoulder". Distance Traveled After Shot:20-30 feet.

2. Black Bear Boar: Yardage: 110-130 (never ranged). Impact Velocity: 2,900ish. Shot Position: Standing Supported. Impact Location: Mid Body Distance Traveled After Shot: 80-90 yards full sprint before collapsing.

3. Mule Deer Buck: Yardage: 636. Impact Velocity: 2,150. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location: High Brisket. Distance Travelled After Shot: 180-220 yards tumbling/rolling downhill.

4. Coues Deer Buck (Different Shooter): Yardage: 212. Impact Velocity: 2,720. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 1st Shot Neck. Ran 40-60 yards and stumbled but stayed up. 2nd shot broke as it started jogging forward again, impacted rear quarter. Deer dropped and died. Distance Travelled After Shot: 40-60 Yards.

5. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 203. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location: 4th Rib Bone. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

6. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 40-50 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,050. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Between 4th and 5th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

7. Whitetail Buck: Yardage: 404. Impact Velocity: 2,390. Shot Position: Prone Supported. Impact Location:Scapula. Distance Traveled After Shot: 20 Yards.

8. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 20-30 (Never Ranged). Impact Velocity: 3,070. Shot Position: Standing Unsupported. Impact Location: Quartering Away, 5th and 6th ribs. Distance Traveled After Shot: 110-130 Yards.

9. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 272. Impact Velocity: 2,610. Shot Position: Seated Unsupported. Impact Location:Between 3rd and 4th rib bones. Distance Traveled After Shot: 120-140 yards.

10. Whitetail Doe (Different Shooter): Yardage: 208. Impact Velocity: 2,740. Shot Position: Kneeling Supported. Impact Location: Forward-Facing Neck (head up smelling us). Distance Traveled After Shot: 0 Yards.

11. Whitetail Doe: Yardage: 510. Impact Velocity: 2,225. Shot Position: Seated Supported. Impact Location: 1 Shot, 5th Rib. Deer ran 60-80 yards and stopped. 2nd Shot, Scapula. Dropped. Distance Traveled After Shot: 60-80 Yards.

12. Whitetail Buck: Yardage 232. Impact Velocity: 2,730ish. Shot Position: Standing, supported by tree branch. Impact Location: 3rd Rib. Distance Traveled After Shot: 5-10
Yards.

Shout out to my 13 year old daughter. All 80 pounds of her. She had a follow up shot on an elk a few weeks back that she already hit. The elk laid down in tall grass after a high shoulder shot. The only thing showing was its head. Getting closer would have risked spooking it and the shot would have been offhand due to the height of the brush. The decision was made to take the shot, then prepare for a follow up body shot if she missed. She took a prone shot off a spartan bipod and rear bag and hit it in the head at 416 yards. This was with a suppressed 7saum shooting 180eldms, which apparently is way too much gun for a lot of people on here!

A suppressed 7SAUM is a great killing rifle. Own one myself. Congrats to her on the success! Would she have been as successful with a .223 or .22 Creedmoor? Why not step her up to a 300NMI?

 

[FredH]

So then I have to ask. How small of a cone of fire or "group" is sufficient for "knowing where the bullet is going"? Someone might read what you wrote and their definition of success is a pie plate at 100 yards, which is approximately "minute of deer vitals"

Inside of a 6 inch circle, at any range you will take the shot. I like 4 inches myself. However there is no group when shooting at deer.