.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[FredH]

I didnt say excessive, but the 308 undeniably has more fecoil than the 223

There you are, if it's not excessive then where is the problem?

 

[Jake Larsen]

There you are, if it's not excessive then where is the problem?

Some would argue that in this case, less is more. I always want to spot my shot. Always.


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[FredH]

Which hunting situations can you make this guarantee? When put into practice, with timed shots, shooting from "not a bench", this statement becomes clearly an internet only type of claim.

That's good. So have many on this site, myself included.

In what position and at what yardage are you making this "guarantee".

I'm on my first big game season this year using a 22 caliber rifle. Are they killing animals anymore dead than the previous decades where I've used 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 cals? I only have 12 kills so far since September so it's hard to make any judgements, so far so good. I can tell you that the benefits of shooting 6mm and 6.5mm nearly exclusively on big game since 2014, totaling hundreds of dead big game animals, the benefits of being a more efficient killer for sure outweigh the negatives of using my .30 cals.

I now have 12 confirmed big game kills with the 80 ELDX out of my 22 Creedmoor. Moose, Bear, and deer so far, elk coming up this weekend. I think you'll likely be a fan of its performance.

I am going to start with the 88 gr. ELDM factory loads. Probably go to either of the X or M 80 grain bullets when I start loading the ARC.

 

[FredH]

Some would argue that in this case, less is more. I always want to spot my shot. Always.


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So you are not sure where it will land when you pull the trigger?

 

[bmart2622]

Less recoil without compromising lethality is advantage!!! You asked what the disadvantage of a 308 would be, more recoil, thats the disadvantage

 

[Jake Larsen]

So you are not sure where it will land when you pull the trigger?

Respectfully, have you shot longer range a lot? Because it’s pretty darn critical to be able to spot shots, know if/when a follow up is needed.

Anybody who claims to know exactly where a bullet is going when they squeeze one off is either perfect, or not very experienced. There’s only ever been one perfect man…


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[FredH]

Less recoil without compromising lethality is advantage!!! You asked what the disadvantage of a 308 would be, more recoil, thats the disadvantage

There are shot angles easily handled by a 308 that I would not take with any 22 caliber.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Dang man you really went for it! I’m still stuck at 6CM…just can’t make myself go down to the 22 yet, which I totally recognize is in my head, not based on evidence. Out of a suppressed rifle, how much difference is there going to be?


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Here's the data on 6CM with factory ammo and 22CM with factory ammo. This is using 5,000' DA and real world seen velocities from both guns with 18" barrels, probably a touch fast for the 6CM honestly. This includes recoil data...

Let’s say both guns are setup identical with 18” barrels. Input 3100 for the .224 and 2850 for the .243 for the calcs. 10 MPH full value wind. 5,000 ft DA.

I'm using 800 yards as an example because many heavy for caliber high BC tipped bullets have been proven to reliably upset somewhere around 1,800 FPS.

At 800 yards the 103 ELDX is 1,750ish FPS. 700ish ft lbs of energy. 5.6 MIL Up. 1.4 MIL Wind.

At 800 yards the 108 ELDM is 1,800ish FPS. 780ish fr lbs of energy. 5.4 MIL Up. 1.3 MIL Wind.

At 800 yards the 80 ELDX is 1,900ish FPS. 650ish ft lbs of energy. 4.6 MIL Up. 1.3 MIL Wind.

At 800 yards the 88 ELDM is 2,000ish FPS. 800ish ft lbs of energy. 4.4 MIL Up. 1.1 MIL Wind.

Free recoil energy in an 8 lb gun shooting 88 ELDM out of 22CM is around 9.5-10 ft lbs.

Free recoil energy in an 8 lb gun shooting 108 ELDM out of 6CM is around 11.5-12 ft lbs.


In fact, taking the highest BC 6.5mm, other than "energy" you'll find that 80 ELDX and 88 ELDM outperform them down range as well. Stepping up to a high BC 7mm is where you finally start pull away, and in my opinion and based on what I've seen, the VAST majority of hunters shouldn't been shooting animals past 400 yards let alone 800.

Hunt with what you want has always been my answer, but if someone asks for my advice or experience, I'm going to give them an answer that generally favors light recoiling guns. Because no matter what folks on the internet say, or the "ex-military sniper" who shows up to the class with the 338 Lapua and 7-42 power VX6 (yes this was a real guy)... When put to the test he shot the 17 Mach 2 better than any other gun in 3 days of shooting.

 

[bmart2622]

Ok, Im not saying there is anything wrong with a 308. My main elk rifle over the last couple years has been a 300 ultra at least until my 257 gets rebareled. I love that rifle and have taken alot of elk with it but I dont for 1 second feel that the recoil from it is an absolute disadvantage over the 25cal. You asked a question and I gave you a factual response, you want to argue against facts with subjective emotions and preferences. In the future, dont ask a question if you arent prepared to get a truthful answer back

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I am going to start with the 88 gr. ELDM factory loads. Probably go to either of the X or M 80 grain bullets when I start loading the ARC.

Nice! Do you have a thread going where you will track this? Would love to follow along.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Here's the data on 6CM with factory ammo and 22CM with factory ammo. This is using 5,000' DA and real world seen velocities from both guns with 18" barrels, probably a touch fast for the 6CM honestly. This includes recoil data...

Let’s say both guns are setup identical with 18” barrels. Input 3100 for the .224 and 2850 for the .243 for the calcs. 10 MPH full value wind. 5,000 ft DA.

I'm using 800 yards as an example because many heavy for caliber high BC tipped bullets have been proven to reliably upset somewhere around 1,800 FPS.

At 800 yards the 103 ELDX is 1,750ish FPS. 700ish ft lbs of energy. 5.6 MIL Up. 1.4 MIL Wind.

At 800 yards the 108 ELDM is 1,800ish FPS. 780ish fr lbs of energy. 5.4 MIL Up. 1.3 MIL Wind.

At 800 yards the 80 ELDX is 1,900ish FPS. 650ish ft lbs of energy. 4.6 MIL Up. 1.3 MIL Wind.

At 800 yards the 88 ELDM is 2,000ish FPS. 800ish ft lbs of energy. 4.4 MIL Up. 1.1 MIL Wind.

Free recoil energy in an 8 lb gun shooting 88 ELDM out of 22CM is around 9.5-10 ft lbs.

Free recoil energy in an 8 lb gun shooting 108 ELDM out of 6CM is around 11.5-12 ft lbs.


In fact, taking the highest BC 6.5mm, other than "energy" you'll find that 80 ELDX and 88 ELDM outperform them down range as well. Stepping up to a high BC 7mm is where you finally start pull away, and in my opinion and based on what I've seen, the VAST majority of hunters shouldn't been shooting animals past 400 yards let alone 800.

Hunt with what you want has always been my answer, but if someone asks for my advice or experience, I'm going to give them an answer that generally favors light recoiling guns. Because no matter what folks on the internet say, or the "ex-military sniper" who shows up to the class with the 338 Lapua and 7-42 power VX6 (yes this was a real guy)... When put to the test he shot the 17 Mach 2 better than any other gun in 3 days of shooting.

Appreciate the thorough response. Im shooting a 7SAW2 and a 6CM currently. 8lbs finished guns suppressed. Totally on board with the low recoiling thought process. Everything got better for me when i dropped out of the magnum/bigger=better thought process.

Did you notice a significant difference in wound channel when you dropped from the 6Creed to the 22Creed? More mass in the bullet to upset should in theory mean larger/more lethal wound channel. Clearly doesn’t mean the 22 isn’t enough. Just wondering about a direct comparison from some one who’s killed with both


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[HandgunHTR]

So you are not sure where it will land when you pull the trigger?

The animal always gets a vote. I know where my crosshairs are when the trigger breaks. I also know that the bullet will impact where the crosshairs are. Those are the only variables in my control. What I don’t know is what the animal is going to do in that split second between when I am almost at the pull weight of the trigger and when it actually breaks. I have decent reflexes, but not that great.
So, being able to spot the impact will show me, immediately, if the animal moves during that process or during the bullet flight. That means I know for an absolute certainty where the bullet impacted. Otherwise I only know when I walk up on the dead animal, or worst case, I never find out and end up in the “I know I made a good shot, so the bullet must have failed” excuse camp.

There are shot angles easily handled by a 308 that I would not take with any 22 caliber.

What shots, exactly, are those?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Did you notice a significant difference in wound channel when you dropped from the 6Creed to the 22Creed? More mass in the bullet to upset should in theory mean larger/more lethal wound channel. Clearly doesn’t mean the 22 isn’t enough. Just wondering about a direct comparison from some one who’s killed with both


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This will obviously depend on where the animal was hit, impact velocity, etc. as you know... As I said, I only have 12 kills so far with .224 on big game since September this year, so my experience is very low compared to many.

In general, so far, in what I've seen, if I shot two animals in the same exact spot, with the same impact velocity, but one was shot with a 103 ELDX and one was shot with a 80 ELDX, nobody would be able to tell which was which.

There are some other folks here with more .224 big game kill experience that could probably answer your question with more authority. I'm a noob still.

 

[Thegman]

... and in my opinion and based on what I've seen, the VAST majority of hunters shouldn't been shooting animals past 400 yards let alone 800.

 

[FCCDerek]

This thread has still not defined a bullet failure. How do you define a bullet failure?

It depends entirely on the bullet. Typically though I don't think they really fail. I think they perform differently based on a lot of variables. You're gonna get wildly different performance based on speed, angle of impact, and bullet construction. I think people use the term bullet failure to cover up bad shots or suboptimal shots more than anything. I'd say bullet failure is pretty much a myth in this day and age. IF its so weak its going to come apart in the first inch of hitting an animal I think the bullet was flawed from manufacturing and its got nothing to do with what it hit or how fast it was going. Then again maybe if they're shooting too light of a bullet at high speeds in a very fast twist barrel that could cause one to fail, but thats on the guy shooting it in a platform not suited for it, not the bullets fault. So, I don't think there's a definition that covers it 100%. If you shoot an animal, and it destroys the internals and fails to go all the way through the critter, thats not the bullets fault. All sorts of stresses and factors come into play when a bullet is hitting a live animal, whether its 2 legged or 4. I had a friend get shot in the chest with an AK47 and the bullet ended up in his hip. Bullets do strange things, and thats never going to change.

 

[Formidilosus]

Out of a suppressed rifle, how much difference is there really going to be? I feel like the 6s are maybe a sweet spot between recoil, ballistics, and terminal performance.

In pure shooting performance- there’s a difference. Reticle movement during recoil is about 30% less (+/-) for the 22CM.
If I have an emotional attachment to a bullet diameter, it’s 6mm. However, in shooting and hit rates, the 22CM with good bullets is better in almost every aspect- it’s a silly point and click combo.

The .224 and .243 are the optimum range. With optimum bullets the 6mm does produce a bit larger wound channel than the same in .224, however the .224 with good bullets creates very good wounds and is not an issue- and it takes a lot of animals and very detailed necropsies and notes to tease out the difference for most bullets.

 

[Jake Larsen]

In pure shooting performance- there’s a difference. Reticle movement during recoil is about 30% less (+/-) for the 22CM.
If I have an emotional attachment to a bullet diameter, it’s 6mm. However, in shooting and hit rates, the 22CM with good bullets is better in almost every aspect- it’s a silly point and click combo.

The .224 and .243 are the optimum range. With optimum bullets the 6mm does produce a bit larger wound channel than the same in .224, however the .224 with good bullets creates very good wounds and is not an issue- and it takes a lot of animals and very detailed necropsies and notes to tease out the difference for most bullets.

Gosh darn it with you and your evidence lol. I wonder how far this could actually go and still produce lethal wound channels. Maybe I’ll re-barrel when a 17Creed is released…


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[deerhunter628]

It depends entirely on the bullet. Typically though I don't think they really fail. I think they perform differently based on a lot of variables. You're gonna get wildly different performance based on speed, angle of impact, and bullet construction. I think people use the term bullet failure to cover up bad shots or suboptimal shots more than anything. I'd say bullet failure is pretty much a myth in this day and age. IF its so weak its going to come apart in the first inch of hitting an animal I think the bullet was flawed from manufacturing and its got nothing to do with what it hit or how fast it was going. Then again maybe if they're shooting too light of a bullet at high speeds in a very fast twist barrel that could cause one to fail, but thats on the guy shooting it in a platform not suited for it, not the bullets fault. So, I don't think there's a definition that covers it 100%. If you shoot an animal, and it destroys the internals and fails to go all the way through the critter, thats not the bullets fault. All sorts of stresses and factors come into play when a bullet is hitting a live animal, whether its 2 legged or 4. I had a friend get shot in the chest with an AK47 and the bullet ended up in his hip. Bullets do strange things, and thats never going to change.

So there are no bullet failures? It is either poor manufacturing, bad shot, or the wrong bullet was used? Is this just your opinion or is there data to support this?

 

[FredH]

Respectfully, have you shot longer range a lot? Because it’s pretty darn critical to be able to spot shots, know if/when a follow up is needed.

Anybody who claims to know exactly where a bullet is going when they squeeze one off is either perfect, or not very experienced. There’s only ever been one perfect man…


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Well I don't shoot past the point where the wind will move my bullet more than 1 inch per MPH or beyond the point my bullet is going less than 2000 fps. What you are saying is you are willing to take shots beyond your personal capabilities. If you don't know within 6 inches of where your bullet will land you should not take the shot. And yes I have shot many rounds at targets past 600 yards. I treat game animals with more respect than paper or steel. You should also.

 

[FredH]

The animal always gets a vote. I know where my crosshairs are when the trigger breaks. I also know that the bullet will impact where the crosshairs are. Those are the only variables in my control. What I don’t know is what the animal is going to do in that split second between when I am almost at the pull weight of the trigger and when it actually breaks. I have decent reflexes, but not that great.
So, being able to spot the impact will show me, immediately, if the animal moves during that process or during the bullet flight. That means I know for an absolute certainty where the bullet impacted. Otherwise I only know when I walk up on the dead animal, or worst case, I never find out and end up in the “I know I made a good shot, so the bullet must have failed” excuse camp.




What shots, exactly, are those?

Yes the animal gets a vote. If you are shooting at an animal far enough away that time of flight is long enough for the animal to move enough to take the impact out of the vital zone you are shooting at than you are shooting too far. One should only take shots at game animals where the variables under your control are the ones that count.

What shots exactly? Hard quartering shots at close range. The kind you often get when hunting in thick brush.