.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Choupique]

I'm not going to continue trying to explain this to you. A deer that doesn't bleed A LOT is a high risk for no recovery where I hunt, even if it only runs 50 yards.

An exit is mandatory for me, and you are not going to drive any expanding bullet all the way through animal vitals from any centerfire rifle without causing serious mortal damage.

So yes, when we find something doesn't exit reliably (.270 130gr core locts or .243 90 gr core locts for example) we quit using them regardless of how much internal damage there is, because somebody ends up losing a deer to the buzzards that way.

 

[ElPollo]

Since it's been brought up multiple times, here are the pics from my thread about a 143 eld-x that my friend shot a deer with. This was a mature blacktail buck, broadside at 140 yards, 6.5 Creedmoor, factory 143 eld-x Precision Hunter ammo. He says this buck was standing by himself in a lane with no obstructions or vegetation, clear line of sight, shoots the buck with a bang flop result, while walking up to the buck it stands at 30 yards and he shoots it in the back of the head terminating it. While gutting it, he noticed none of the vitals seemed to be damaged, but continued working and got the buck home. Upon skinning the buck he recovered the majority of the jacket and part of the core from the center of the impact wound. No other notable fragments were found, and there were no penetrations into the cavity. No holes or lacerations to any of the bloodshot rib meat where the bullet was recovered on the outside.

View attachment 782862View attachment 782864View attachment 782860View attachment 782861View attachment 782863

I have since informed him that he doesn't know what he's doing, didn't take enough pictures, doesn't remember what actually happened, and needs to quit shooting deer through other deer and still hitting the target deer exactly where he intends.

I'm jk, but it was poured on pretty strong.

Hey, I don’t mean to interrupt all this ass chapping between @Ucsdryder and @Formidilosus. But the outer wound channel looks like it’s going upward and backward and the bruising in the internal cavity near the spine and the lack of bruising in the crease area supports that. That makes absolutely no sense given what the shooter reported to his friend. So I’m going to throw out a hypothesis.

The deer was not in-fact a whitetail but was instead one of Santa’s flying reindeer. This explains the shot from below moving upward and backward. The reindeer was actually flying into the decoy set. The shooter did not realize that flying reindeer season does not open until after Christmas. Once it was on the ground, he put one in its head to finish it off, quickly hid the whiskey bottle and the crack pipe, skinned out the animal, and disposed of the hide head and horns, and concocted this story so that he wouldn’t get pinched by the law and disappointed his grandkids.

I think the evidence supports this theory sufficiently, and we can all go back to insulting each other for the everyday stuff.

 

[doc holiday13]

But a bullet that kills quickly and doesnt exit failed where as one that makes 2 holes and the animal takes longer to die is a raging success?!?!

yes?

Success is measured by recovered animal and speed of kill.

I took an archery shot this past weekend that most would probably chastise me for. Its the 2nd time i've made this shot and it was a zero tracking recovery. Deer fell over on the spot. Yes archery.

Its a frontal from elevated position. Deer took the arrow high mid neck, arrow exited at the liver and barely grazed the heart. deer jumped backwards and fell over. Stopped flailing under 30 seconds Last deer I shot like that ran 25 yards. Its highly effective and easy to do at 10 yards from a tree stand. I'll claim its the best shot you can take on a deer with a bow.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Well, if you can't handle anything above the 223 it's real simple. Just stay in your lane and the guys shooting real rifles will leave you alone. Just don't come kissing ass to borrow my 470 Nitro or 505 Gibbs because now you want to hunt the big shit that will stomp you into a red spot on the ground. 223 need not apply.

 

[Choupique]

His goal is always to be the loudest person in the room.

Eh. He's basically single handedly changed a lot of people's thinking about killing game for the better. Its usually controversial stuff and it's usually against the grain of what everyone thought they've known for decades. He writes that way because if he doesn't stick to facts and evidence then he's just going to be called a contrarian idiot.

Its apparent the guy is party to a lot of big game kills in a year and likely has more first hand experience than many of us put together. I don't think his aim is to be the loudest in the room, I think his aim is to get people to view shooting game objectively and not base their decisions on what some idiot wrote in a magazine.

 

[bmart2622]

yes?

Success is measured by recovered animal and speed of kill.

I took an archery shot this past weekend that most would probably chastise me for. Its the 2nd time i've made this shot and it was a zero tracking recovery. Deer fell over on the spot. Yes archery.

Its a frontal from elevated position. Deer took the arrow high mid neck, arrow exited at the liver and barely grazed the heart. deer jumped backwards and fell over. Stopped flailing under 30 seconds Last deer I shot like that ran 25 yards. Its highly effective and easy to do at 10 yards from a tree stand. I'll claim its the best shot you can take on a deer with a bow.

I agree, quick kills is my objective, I could care less about 2 holes or weight retention

 

[jaredg]

I am a huge fan of the 243 cartridge. I have used it to kill several (100s?) of deer. I have always used the same round, a Sako 243 100gr gamehead. I have killed deer from 400 yds in with this bullet. 90% of these were bang flops.

I bought a 6.5CM and the all the deer (8-10) I shot took off running and were hard to recover or I did not recover.

My take away was this... 243 kills dead instantly, 6.5 is for long distance paper punching.

Then I started reading post from some guy named Form. I started to pay attention to what my ammo was actually doing. I learned that bullets and velocity matters. Maybe it wasn't the headstamp that failed, maybe it was the wrong bullet for the application.

For everyone that has been offended by Form, maybe it would help if you thought of him as a machine. If you read his posts, they are very data driven with little to no emotion. People can read what they want into his posts, and some get hurt feelings when Form or Ryan or someone takes everything we have been told and turns it on it's head.

I love being told I'm wrong. Even better if someone can show me why and show me a better way. I'm an adult and do not need my corrections sugar coated.

I'm very grateful to anyone who will freely give out good info in a direct no bullshit way. If people don't like hearing what Form has to say, use the ignore function. I have a few members here ignored.

If you don't like using small heavy for caliber bullets, cool. If you don't think Tikkas are the god of thunder's own war hammer, cool. If you love your Leupold scope, cool. I'm sure there are other forums out there that hate Tikkas and love Leupold and recoil.

One last thing. Every time time I have reached out to Form via PM to ask a question he has answered me right away with good info and data that supports the info. He gives away his knowledge freely and without judgement. That is rare. Thanks Form and thanks to Ryan and everyone else for keeping this forum open. I appreciate you all.

 

[hunterjmj]

Well, if you can't handle anything above the 223 it's real simple. Just stay in your lane and the guys shooting real rifles will leave you alone. Just don't come kissing ass to borrow my 470 Nitro or 505 Gibbs because now you want to hunt the big shit that will stomp you into a red spot on the ground. 223 need not apply.

? This thread is suppose to be about bullet failure. Go post this in the 223 thread for guys shooting 223's. Also, no one is going to be kissing your ass so they can shoot your 470 nitro.

 

[Choupique]

I do want a .458 win mag for no good reason, and when I get one I will shoot a deer with it.

Im also going to shoot one with a .223 this year. And maybe an M1 Garand. I'll be sure to report any bullet failures.

 

[BULLBLASTER]

Hmm.






I don’t think you know anything by what you post. Bruising is in the same general area? What you write makes it hard to believe that you have ever taken your own animals apart and looked inside.


This wound is mid line of the chest cavity (approximately the 4th or 5th rib)

View attachment 782911



Which would put it about here-

View attachment 782907









“Chaps my ass”? Do you behave like a teenager in day to day life, or is it just internet persona for you?

I dont believe that those 2 yellow dots are in the same spot. There is much more bone and tissue above the lungs in that area than below. To me, the bruising at the top ish if the ribs on the left of the inside picture would align with the wound on the outside upper shoulder where the bullet was found.
The spine is fairly tall in that are so the cavity is offset lower. I think the light at the opening was where the esophigus (sp) would be, which is at the bottom part of the neck.
just my 2 cents.

 

[Spoonbill]

I don't think ive ever seen that but the vast majority of deer I've cleaned were shot with cup and core bullets. A frames are supposed to be the ultimate toughest non come apart thing ever made.

I don't really understand the bonding process or how it works exactly. You can't weld lead to copper. I've personally always been of the opinion that bonding is a load of marketing BS and that core alloy and jacket geometry are what determines how a bullet does or doesnt hold together, but I've never done any actual testing to find out.

The most confused person was the shooter as he had shot dozens of animals with that bullet/cartridge combo. He chalked it up to he got a bad bullet and/or the tarnish on the bullet somehow caused a failure. Wierd things happen, so we chalked it up as an anomoly.

 

[huntnful]

I had a 230 Berger zip through a deer’s neck at 880 yards. Thought I missed. Killed him with the follow up shot. When I was caping him out there was a bullet hole in and bullet hole out dead center in the neck. Went back and watched the video and sure as shit the first shot actually center punched his neck and had zero expansion through 6” of tissue.

Can’t really say it was a failure since I hit him at long range and not in substantial medium for such a big non tipped bullet, but I would have expected a little expansion.

 

[Dave0317]

This thread needs to be retitled with a different opening post so that it's actually productive.

Discussing bullet impact anomalies with the available evidence from the event can be educational.

Limiting this to smaller calibers as if just taking a jab at the success threads is not productive.

I started this shit show of a thread so I’ll explain.

In all honesty, I’m actually very much favor of giving small calibers a try. Especially now that my son is going to start hunting soon, .223 for deer has been on my mind.

The success threads are full of detail, pictures, videos, etc, and there is not much room for stories of failure.

I didn’t want to fully commit to my 10 year old being the test dummy with .223 vs deer for us. So I figured why not go ahead and create a thread that specifically asks for evidence that shows that it shouldn’t be done. A bit of a devils advocate research topic. If the success threads have been too one sided and given us a false sense of security in the smaller calibers, then this thread can be the voice that argues against that.

So far, I’m still planning on bringing my son to the woods and having him carry a Tikka .223, loaded with 73 gr ELD-Ms.

 

[JBahr]

I found a .22 lead bullet lodged against the spine in the neck of a cow elk I killed. That bullet failed. You could also say the 180gr Hornady CX I put through her lungs failed, zero expansion at 2600 fps impact velocity. Lungs intact minus, .30 caliber hole… The follow up high shoulder placement also lacked expansion but did not fail.

 

[Choupique]

this thread can be the voice that argues against that.

These days, that's a dissenting opinion around here.

As someone said earlier, the stars would really have to line up for evidence. It'd have to be someone who posts here, who's had a bullet failure, who ended up getting the animal, took pictures, and cares to come talk about it.

I deer hunt with a .338 win mag, and my kid is going to use an AR15, so you'll get no such argument from me.

 

[deerhunter628]

I started this shit show of a thread so I’ll explain.

In all honesty, I’m actually very much favor of giving small calibers a try. Especially now that my son is going to start hunting soon, .223 for deer has been on my mind.

The success threads are full of detail, pictures, videos, etc, and there is not much room for stories of failure.

I didn’t want to fully commit to my 10 year old being the test dummy with .223 vs deer for us. So I figured why not go ahead and create a thread that specifically asks for evidence that shows that it shouldn’t be done. A bit of a devils advocate research topic. If the success threads have been too one sided and given us a false sense of security in the smaller calibers, then this thread can be the voice that argues against that.

So far, I’m still planning on bringing my son to the woods and having him carry a Tikka .223, loaded with 73 gr ELD-Ms.

If you are hunting open country where you can watch them for a bit i think the 223 will do very good for your son. My sample size of one the 223 worked very good just no blood trail. I used the 77 tmk.

 

[HuntHarder]

I think you're reading what you want to read in general...

I only have a grand total of a whopping 3 big game .224 kills, yet get "chastised" as being apart of "the small bullet crowd" by the giant and decades long "bigger is better echo chamber".

Never once have I said "smaller bullets are more effective at killing" yet, because I ask folks simple questions like "what is your personal experience with killing with smaller bullets and what evidence to backup your claims do you have?" I am suddenly placed into some sort of "close minded small caliber group". That's an interesting take to me.

When those questions are asked, those folks usually go silent, or make broad claims like "don't shoot a moose with a .224 and if you do, don't go anywhere near the shoulder." Or they turn passive aggressive like you often do and resort to broad stoke name calling and "hinting" style insults. While I personally think most of those are funny, as I like joking around, some folks see it as them being "attacked" and it provokes further "argument" (whatever that even means on the internet with typed out words).

I think the idea of this thread is excellent, and would love to see/try to analyze "splashes and blow ups". I do, however, think putting the "calibers" in the title makes little sense. I'd like to see them from all diameters.

Why are you so passive aggressive? I asked you twice last night to point out where you claimed I gave advice in this thread and I have no experience... You provided nothing because you can't. Then you continue being ate up over 1 post I made that said, "

You sir have drank the Rokslide green kool-aid full tilt. .223 for moose certainly will work, but is not any where near optimal for moose. Kind of sad that guys think this way now on this site. Hope your rokstock tikka um rings maven .223 works for you. Shoot straight and do not get anywhere near the shoulder

You then shot a moose near the shoulder with a .224 and it died. I said congrats. I NEVER said a .223 will not kill a moose, quite opposite actually. I simply stated it was not optimal in my opinion. That hasn't changed. Sounds like you may agree now that it isn't optimal, based on your statement that smaller bullets don't kill better than big bullets. If you think shooting a moose in the shoulder with a .223 is a good idea, you simply are too attached to your small bullets to grasp reality. I have no reason to argue with you. We simply do not agree that a .224 80gr. bullet is optimal for large game. Sorry I touched such a nerve a few months ago with my moose comment. Build a bridge and get over it. It was 1 comment.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Why are you so passive aggressive? I asked you twice last night to point out where you claimed I gave advice in this thread and I have no experience... You provided nothing because you can't. Then you continue being ate up over 1 post I made that said, "

This was probably just me misquoting or you (and myself) interpreting what was written poorly. I didn't mean for my original comment towards you to be about this thread in particular. I've seen a few posts from you "hating" on the small caliber idea, and even quoting me directly when I had zero experience in the matter. Probably mostly me sucking at the internet is all.

You then shot a moose near the shoulder with a .224 and it died. I said congrats. I NEVER said a .223 will not kill a moose, quite opposite actually. I simply stated it was not optimal in my opinion. That hasn't changed.

You had a strong opinion on the matter and then ignored me when I asked what your experience was in that "realm" of killing is all. I assumed that meant you had zero experience like most folks who come in and "bash" the idea. Sorry if that was a bad assumption on my part.

Sounds like you may agree now that it isn't optimal, based on your statement that smaller bullets don't kill better than big bullets.

My current opinion is that how big around the bullet happens to be matters much less than how fast the bullet is travelling, and what the construction of said bullet may be. Until that is "disproven" with evidence other than hearsay, I'm gonna stick with it. Maybe I'll be the one to "disprove" some of it this season and switch back to 6mm and 6.5mm? I have several more big game attempts happening soon as the Fall and Winter roll on.

If you think shooting a moose in the shoulder with a .223 is a good idea, you simply are too attached to your small bullets to grasp reality.

This is my first season shooting "small bullets" at large game. I have been a 6mm and 6.5mm big game killer for 10 years now, and a 7mm and .30 cal killer both during and before that time as well. How would you say this equates to me being "attached to small bullets?"

I have no reason to argue with you. We simply do not agree that a .224 80gr. bullet is optimal for large game. Sorry I touched such a nerve a few months ago with my moose comment. Build a bridge and get over it. It was 1 comment.

It's all good to disagree, however, I would refrain from giving advice to folks when you have little to no experience in the matter (again if this is an incorrect assumption I apologize). This is the only reason I brought it up again, since you ignored me the first couple times when asked of your experience in the matter; and then ignored me again when I showed you evidence that it worked after the fact.

If you don't want to be educated and/or want bury your head in the sand when hard data is presented, that is totally fine. I would say take your own advice in that instance and build a bridge to get over it, ignore threads like this and keep shooting whatever works for you.

 

[BAKPAKR]

Let's try this again.

2 holes usually bleed more than 1. Deer run fast. Deer don't flop 100% of the time. Some people need very reliable blood trails to reliably recover deer in their terrain.

So, for some people, your observed performance is unacceptable.




Would understand that what is optimal for one use case may not be acceptable for a different use case.

Maybe I am just unlucky but I have seen deer run despite an amazing amount of damage from bullets. A fatally hit deer that runs into a thicket of autumn olive, laurel, rhododendron, or whatever thick nasty stuff that might be in your neck of the woods can be very hard to find without a decent blood trail. Been there, done that. So, I, too, prefer an exit hole.

 

[HuntHarder]

This was probably just me misquoting or you (and myself) interpreting what was written poorly. I didn't mean for my original comment towards you to be about this thread in particular. I've seen a few posts from you "hating" on the small caliber idea, and even quoting me directly when I had zero experience in the matter. Probably mostly me sucking at the internet is all.


You had a strong opinion on the matter and then ignored me when I asked what your experience was in that "realm" of killing is all. I assumed that meant you had zero experience like most folks who come in and "bash" the idea. Sorry if that was a bad assumption on my part.


My current opinion is that how big around the bullet happens to be matters much less than how fast the bullet is travelling, and what the construction of said bullet may be. Until that is "disproven" with evidence other than hearsay, I'm gonna stick with it. Maybe I'll be the one to "disprove" some of it this season and switch back to 6mm and 6.5mm? I have several more big game attempts happening soon as the Fall and Winter roll on.



This is my first season shooting "small bullets" at large game. I have been a 6mm and 6.5mm big game killer for 10 years now, and a 7mm and .30 cal killer both during and before that time as well. How would you say this equates to me being "attached to small bullets?"


It's all good to disagree, however, I would refrain from giving advice to folks when you have little to no experience in the matter (again if this is an incorrect assumption I apologize). This is the only reason I brought it up again, since you ignored me the first couple times when asked of your experience in the matter; and then ignored me again when I showed you evidence that it worked after the fact.

If you don't want to be educated and/or want bury your head in the sand when hard data is presented, that is totally fine. I would say take your own advice in that instance and build a bridge to get over it, ignore threads like this and keep shooting whatever works for you.

I was on a 13 day hunt when you killed your bull. Maybe I missed it when I went thru all my notifications. You shooting a moose with a small caliber wasn't a huge event for me. As for me giving advice. I think guys can give their opinion on any subject. I have never eaten a pile of human feces, but i am pretty confident it is gonna taste like shit.... As others have pointed out, you seem to get defensive if guys do not agree with small caliber for large game. Just know that it is the internet and people are allowed to have their own experiences and opinions. You might change some but likely not all.

As for no experience with the .224 on a moose shoulder, I do not honestly think too many that have actual experience. I do have moose experience and have taken enough animals to develop my own opinions. I shot a moose at 45 -50 yards and found a my bullet in the opposite shoulder hide. As luck would have it, I had to use a back up rifle with 180 Barnes bullets. That moose took that bullet surprisingly well at such a close range. DRT for sure, but no exit at that range was eye opening with a bullet known for good penetration.

At any rate, telling people not to comment on a thread is weird. Ignore posts that aren't SME's and read only ones that you feel are. No need to argue with you anymore. This matter is squashed in my book. Good luck on your future hunts, post pictures since it sounds like you have quite a bit of tags.