.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Choupique]

non bonded cup and core bullets shedding the jacket and working exactly how they are intended to work is a bullet failure

I don't think I've ever seen a manufacturer market jacket separation as a desirable thing. They go to great lengths to prove their product isn't susceptible to that. I don't know what a tipped power shok bullet is to look it up, but I'm sure they do not market core/jacket seperation as the intended performance.

I could see how jacket separation of a controlled expansion bullet would be about the 2nd worst performance possible. It doesn't really fragment, it doesn't penetrate predictably, it doesn't exit reliably. There's really nothing desirable about that. I get the pitch for match bullets and what they do. I don't get this pitch for jacket separation at all.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Hmm.






I don’t think you know anything by what you post. Bruising is in the same general area? What you write makes it hard to believe that you have ever taken your own animals apart and looked inside.


This wound is mid line of the chest cavity (approximately the 4th or 5th rib)

View attachment 782911



Which would put it about here-

View attachment 782907









“Chaps my ass”? Do you behave like a teenager in day to day life, or is it just internet persona for you?

You do realize name calling makes you sound like a child right? It’s ironic the title next to your name.

Back to that picture, yes I said same side and general area, I know you’re the expert on everything but how was that not factual? Let me guess, you were actually there! Plot twist. And the picture of the hole that Stevie wonder could see? Funny how you glossed over that statement.

Let’s face it, you have pushed this stupid agenda about small bullets. It’s as close to a child as you’ll ever get, and you defend it like your child. Form, you’re right, a small bullet is so special and does such a good job. Happy now?

 

[bmart2622]

Excuse me, that was a typo, it was a tipped CoreLokt bullet. Anyone with any knowledge of terminal balistics knows that a cup and core bullet shedding the jacket is not uncommon. Just like anyone with any terminal ballistic knowledge would take destroyed vitals, quick death and short if any tracking jobs regardless of an exit or retained weight vs 2 holes or a pretty mushroomed bullet

 

[Formidilosus]

Did you just say I was passive aggressive? Pot, meet kettle. .

I’m not sure that I have ever referred to or about you in any post that wasn’t directly to you. Your behavior is passive aggressive, that’s not name calling.

“Passive-aggressive behavior is a pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of openly addressing them”

I can certainly respond openly with negative feelings or comments, such as “maybe if you stopped arguing so much about things you don’t know, and instead spent that time and energy learning to shoot, you could reduce the amount of animals that you miss or wound and not recover- including antelope legs”.

too bad you blur out all your pictures, you could put yourself in the dictionary under narcissistic.

Again. What does this have to do with whether a bullet supposedly didn’t penetrate 2 inches of meat? You can’t address the pictures that you posted and what I wrote about what is shown, but you can post this? Or is it that you don’t actually care what is true or likely, it’s just that you have a personal issue with some random screen name and you’re going to argue regardless?

 

[Spoonbill]

I could see how jacket separation of a controlled expansion bullet would be about the 2nd worst performance possible. It doesn't really fragment, it doesn't penetrate predictably, it doesn't exit reliably. There's really nothing desirable about that. I get the pitch for match bullets and what they do. I don't get this pitch for jacket separation at all.

Somewhat relevant to this thread and relevant to what you posted, I have seen a jacket separation on a bonded bullet before.
Buddy had a bad shot on a cow elk, hit it in the hind leg at 200ish yards and the lower leg was held on by some skin. Next shot was in the spine shoulder junction at 130ish yards and when cleaning the elk all he found was part of the jacket. He was shooting a 250 grain a frame out of a 338 mag. Based on dozens of animals he had shot with this combo, it should have blown through the spine. The elk died, either from blood loss and/or a spine shot. Only conclusion we could come to was the bullet separated mid flight. Dead elk but the bullet did not perform as intended.

 

[Choupique]

and short if any tracking jobs regardless of an exit

Let's try this again.

2 holes usually bleed more than 1. Deer run fast. Deer don't flop 100% of the time. Some people need very reliable blood trails to reliably recover deer in their terrain.

So, for some people, your observed performance is unacceptable.

Just like anyone with any terminal ballistic knowledge

Would understand that what is optimal for one use case may not be acceptable for a different use case.

 

[Formidilosus]

You do realize name calling makes you sound like a child right? It’s ironic the title next to your name.

Where did I call you a name? Asking if you behave like a teenager is not calling you a name.

Back to that picture, yes I said same side and general area, I know you’re the expert on everything but how was that not factual? Let me guess, you were actually there! Plot twist. And the picture of the hole that Stevie wonder could see? Funny how you glossed over that statement.

Except it is not the same area. I posted pictures with yellow dots place center of the wound outside, and center where it would be inside- it’s nowhere near the supposed “bruising”. And, that “bruising” is on both sides of the chest cavity- how did that happen if you believe it is bruising from a bullet perfectly broadside that only penetrated an inch or two?

Let’s face it, you have pushed this stupid agenda about small bullets

Stupid agenda? Fact based reality is an agenda?

How did you arrive at it being an agenda? And how did you arrive at it being stupid- have you tried it? Or are you too busy leg shooting animals with magnums? (that’s a mix of sarcasm, open aggression and touch of passive aggressiveness)

. It’s as close to a child as you’ll ever get, and you defend it like your child. Form, you’re right, a small bullet is so special and does such a good job. Happy now?

I know that smaller calibers performs well- as I have direct experience both in testing and hundreds of live animals from antelope to moose- there’s also a 400 page thread showing that everything I stated from the beginning was correct. Because I do well to not speak about the things that I don’t have experience in.

It takes incredible ignorance and arrogance to hold the position you do in the face of the vast evidence available. So why do you talk and argue positions that you have no experience of?

 

[Ucsdryder]

I’m not sure that I have ever referred to or about you in any post that wasn’t directly to you. Your behavior is passive aggressive, that’s not name calling.



I can certainly respond openly with negative feelings or comments, such as “maybe if you stopped arguing so much about things you don’t know, and instead spent that time and energy learning to shoot, you could reduce the amount of animals that you miss or wound and not recover- including antelope legs”.




Again. What does this have to do with whether a bullet supposedly didn’t penetrate 2 inches of meat? You can’t address the pictures that you posted and what I wrote about what is shown, but you can post this? Or is it that you don’t actually care what is true or likely, it’s just that you have a personal issue with some random screen name and you’re going to argue regardless?

What the hell are you even talking about? I don’t need to defend the pictures. The pictures speak for themselves. The only “problem” with the pictures are that they don’t follow your narrative so you have to try to disprove them. Anything that doesn’t align with your opinions (facts in your mind), is automatically attacked. The bullet didn’t penetrate the cavity. End of story. Just like the antelope I saw this year that had an identical entrance wound, the only difference was that a couple pieces of the bullet penetrated into the cavity. Very good chance on a deer it would not have penetrated.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Where did I call you a name? Asking if you behave like a teenager is not calling you a name.







Except it is not the same area. I posted pictures with yellow dots place center of the wound outside, and center where it would be inside- it’s near the supposed “bruising”. And, that “bruising is on both sides of the chest cavity- how did that happen if you believe it is bruising from a bullet perfectly broadside that only penetrated an inch or two?




Stupid agenda? Fact based reality is an agenda?

How did you arrive at it being an agenda? And how did you arrive at it being stupid- have you tried it? Or are you too busy leg shooting animals with magnums? (that’s a mix of sarcasm, open aggression and touch of passive aggressiveness)




I know that smaller calibers performs well- as I have direct experience both in testing and hundreds of live animals from antelope to moose. Because I do well to not speak about the things that I don’t have experience in. Why do you talk and argue positions that you have no experience of?

Come on…you’re not that dense. If I tell someone they’re acting like an ass-hole then that’s name calling. Telling someone they’re acting like a teenager is name calling. I know you’re trying to be cute with your little games, but let’s call a spade a spade. Why do you think you have so many run ins with people on here? I’ll help, it’s not your winning personality.

 

[Choupique]

have seen a jacket separation on a bonded bullet before.

I don't think ive ever seen that but the vast majority of deer I've cleaned were shot with cup and core bullets. A frames are supposed to be the ultimate toughest non come apart thing ever made.

I don't really understand the bonding process or how it works exactly. You can't weld lead to copper. I've personally always been of the opinion that bonding is a load of marketing BS and that core alloy and jacket geometry are what determines how a bullet does or doesnt hold together, but I've never done any actual testing to find out.

 

[Formidilosus]

Come on…you’re not that dense. If I tell someone they’re acting like an ass-hole then that’s name calling. Telling someone they’re acting like a teenager is name calling.

You have called me names, or hidden snide comments behind emoji’s for years about me. That is teenager behavior. I have not done that about you.

I know you’re trying to be cute with your little games, but let’s call a spade a spade. Why do you think you have so many run ins with people on here? I’ll help, it’s not your winning personality.

No- it’s because I do not accept the myth and nonsense that has permeated the shooting and hunting world.

Feel free to point out anything that you believe that I have “argued” about with you that is incorrect, I will meet you with Ryan and I we will test it in front of you and on camera.

 

[bmart2622]

Let's try this again.

2 holes usually bleed more than 1. Deer run fast. Deer don't flop 100% of the time. Some people need very reliable blood trails to reliably recover deer in their terrain.

So, for some people, your observed performance is unacceptable.




Would understand that what is optimal for one use case may not be acceptable for a different use case.

Are you saying you put more emphasis on an exit than you do internal damage?

 

[Ucsdryder]

Where did I call you a name? Asking if you behave like a teenager is not calling you a name.







Except it is not the same area. I posted pictures with yellow dots place center of the wound outside, and center where it would be inside- it’s nowhere near the supposed “bruising”. And, that “bruising” is on both sides of the chest cavity- how did that happen if you believe it is bruising from a bullet perfectly broadside that only penetrated an inch or two?




Stupid agenda? Fact based reality is an agenda?

How did you arrive at it being an agenda? And how did you arrive at it being stupid- have you tried it? Or are you too busy leg shooting animals with magnums? (that’s a mix of sarcasm, open aggression and touch of passive aggressiveness)




I know that smaller calibers performs well- as I have direct experience both in testing and hundreds of live animals from antelope to moose- there’s also a 400 page thread showing that everything I stated from the beginning was correct. Because I do well to not speak about the things that I don’t have experience in.

Lol, like last month when you were giving me parenting advice and telling me I was doing it wrong? I take it back, I’m quite confident you are that dense.

 

[Ucsdryder]

You have called me names, or hidden snide comments behind emoji’s for years about me. That is teenager behavior. I have not done that about you.





No- it’s because I do not accept the myth and nonsense that has permeated the shooting and hunting world.

Feel free to point out anything that you believe that I have “argued” about with you that is incorrect, I will meet you with Ryan and I we will test it in front of you and on camera.

That’s the problem, anything you believe is fact. Anything you don’t believe is nonsense. Sometimes I swear you’re just trolling with the things you say, but I know you’re not.

 

[Choupique]

you saying you put more emphasis on an exit than you do internal damage?

No. If that were the case I'd be using solids. I put equal emphasis on both.

 

[Formidilosus]

Lol, like last month when you were giving me parenting advice and telling me I was doing it wrong? I take it back, I’m quite confident you are that dense.

Why bring up things if you aren’t going to engage in them in honestly?

That’s the problem, anything you believe is fact. Anything you don’t believe is nonsense. Sometimes I swear you’re just trolling with the things you say, but I know you’re not.

I just offered to show you in person and filmed for the entire forum to see, anything that you believe that isn’t correct, and you respond with my beliefs? I will prove it to you in person on video. That’s not a belief.

Maybe you could bring your scopes that have never had a problem ever, and we can see if they’ll stay zeroed for a couple of days of shooting? That is still correct, right?

 

[bmart2622]

But a bullet that kills quickly and doesnt exit failed where as one that makes 2 holes and the animal takes longer to die is a raging success?!?!

 

[deerhunter628]

That’s the problem, anything you believe is fact. Anything you don’t believe is nonsense. Sometimes I swear you’re just trolling with the things you say, but I know you’re not.

That is absolutely true. There are a few people on here that think everything they say is indisputable facts just because they say it. And if anyone disagrees with them it is nonsense. Maybe they have some expertise but that has not been proven. All that i have seen is blurred out faces and changed voices which to some i think that mystique equates to authority.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Why bring up things if you aren’t going to engage in them in honestly?

The
Many of us have used small bullets. Many have used big bullets. I’ve hunted with a 6.5cm and a 257 Roberts. So I do in fact have experience with smaller bullets, and I have plenty of experience with target bullets, what’s your point?

You don’t have kids, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re clueless, but you jumped right into that conversation to express your drivel.

So tell me again that you talk from knowledge and experience on here, but everyone knows else talks in nonsense.

 

[Ucsdryder]

That is absolutely true. There are a few people on here that think everything they say is indisputable facts just because they say it. And if anyone disagrees with them it is nonsense. Maybe they have some expertise but that has not been proven. All that i have seen is blurred out faces and changed voices which to some i think that mystique equates to authority.

Well said…. His goal is always to be the loudest person in the room. He’s a bully and I’m sick and tired of it. This is a perfect example. Someone calls out a target bullet and shows pictures and he’s calling the guy a liar.