.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[hunterjmj]

Shot a buck high in the neck with a 300 WM 215 Berger. At the time I thought I hit him good because it was a bang flop. I headed straight down the canyon and up the other side to claim my buck. Somewhere in that time he got up and ran off. Not much blood and I eventually ran out of ideas. Forward to the next year I find this buck working some does and asked my buddy if he wanted to shoot it. He'd never killed anything bigger than a forky. So he makes a good shot at 250 yards and the buck dies. He wanted it caped so I started skinning and found my bullet from the previous year high in the neck caught by the opposing hide. Bullet mushroomed great but no sign of lasting injury from a terrible shot. I think this is an example of a fantastic bullet and a terrible shot. It happens.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Problem is, a guy just posted a picture of a Eld-x not performing well and requiring another shot. Make that 2 pictures and the guy's story has not changed. What we get instead of accepting this "failure" is guys trying to tell him what really happened. Theories of shooting thru another deer first, bullet bouncing off the ground first, hitting a twig, animal severely quartered. So many theories with few actually just believing that maybe, just maybe, an eld-x didn't perform like it usually does. Resident expert determines there are 3 holes in the rib cage, even though the OP confirms there are 0 holes in the cavity.

Weren’t you the “resident expert” telling me I shouldn’t try to kill a moose with a .224? You told me to “go nowhere near the shoulder”.

Pot meets kettle yet again with @HuntHarder

 

[HuntHarder]

Weren’t you the “resident expert” telling me I shouldn’t try to kill a moose with a .224? You told me to “go nowhere near the shoulder”.

Pot meets kettle yet again with @HuntHarder

LOL. Nice one guy. Keep on being Form's Mark. Nice shot on your Moose, still a bad idea in my opinion. I never said it couldn't be done, just said it's a bad idea. You proved that it can be done. Congrats on a nice bull.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

LOL. Nice one guy. Keep on being Form's Mark. Nice shot on your Moose, still a bad idea in my opinion. I never said it couldn't be done, just said it's a bad idea. You proved that it can be done. Congrats on a nice bull.

Thanks!

Why is it a bad idea?

Also, I’m jealous of your profile pic bull btw.

 

[HuntHarder]

Thanks!

Why is it a bad idea?

Also, I’m jealous of your profile pic bull btw.

It's the internet, we all have opinions, based on experience. I have had great luck thru bones and shoulders with larger cartridges. I have never had a reason to try something smaller. I see no reason not to shoot a larger cartridge if you can shoot it accurately and hit your intended target. Again, only my opinion and I have never said that a .223 would not kill any animal. It absolutely will, just won't be this guy shooting it.

 

[pbroski]

Problem is, a guy just posted a picture of a Eld-x not performing well and requiring another shot. Make that 2 pictures and the guy's story has not changed. What we get instead of accepting this "failure" is guys trying to tell him what really happened. Theories of shooting thru another deer first, bullet bouncing off the ground first, hitting a twig, animal severely quartered. So many theories with few actually just believing that maybe, just maybe, an eld-x didn't perform like it usually does. Resident expert determines there are 3 holes in the rib cage, even though the OP confirms there are 0 holes in the cavity.

Some people are digging deeper for good reason. Look at the facts. You have a 143gr. bullet impacting a deer at about 2500 fps with a retained weight of about 60gr. It can't penetrate only 2 inches, then just stop. That completely defies the laws of physics. How often have you seen a ballistics gel test where a bullet penetrated 2 inches and stopped. I just doesn't happen. That's the reason for questioning it. And nobody was "telling him what really happened", just presenting some possibilities of what could have happened.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Part of the issue with failures, whether a 22 cal or 338 cal is that the animal isn’t found. It’s more rare to recover a failure because usually it requires a follow up shot on a running animal that’s trying to get the heck out of town.

Last year I shot a big buck with a 180 eldm. I saw and heard impact and his front leg was hanging. I panicked, missed a couple of fast walking follow up shots and the deer was never seen again. No blood, no deer. It could have been a low shot, hit leg and brisket, or lower, or it could have hit shoulder and failed to penetrate adequately. I’ll never know, but always wonder!

And this is where the accuracy over all argument enters the chat… sucks to lose an animal I have, I think anyone who hunts long enough will

 

[Hnthrdr]

Shot a buck high in the neck with a 300 WM 215 Berger. At the time I thought I hit him good because it was a bang flop. I headed straight down the canyon and up the other side to claim my buck. Somewhere in that time he got up and ran off. Not much blood and I eventually ran out of ideas. Forward to the next year I find this buck working some does and asked my buddy if he wanted to shoot it. He'd never killed anything bigger than a forky. So he makes a good shot at 250 yards and the buck dies. He wanted it caped so I started skinning and found my bullet from the previous year high in the neck caught by the opposing hide. Bullet mushroomed great but no sign of lasting injury from a terrible shot. I think this is an example of a fantastic bullet and a terrible shot. It happens.

Tough buck, you figure a 300 wm in the neck would be lights out… good to hear and a good reminder to stay in your scope for a while and watch the intended target. Cool story that your friend got him though

 

[bowrunner81]

I’ve never gotten a real good blood trail. Ever. I haven’t shot hundreds of animals, but I’ve shot a few dozen. I’m also color blind with red green and brown so that doesn’t help. lol

 

[roadrunner]

Would you be able to extend your knowledge to those of us that have learned otherwise?

I too was a “1,500 ft lbs at impact for elk” guy, because that’s what I was taught. As recent as 4 or 5 years ago you would have seen me shooting heavier hitting guns for cow elk depredation hunts (where I’ll be in both Wyoming and Idaho this year shortly). I shoot “long range” on those hunts and wanted to maintain “all the energy” down range, as I was taught. I also used .243 and .264 guns since the late 90s but held those to “closer ranges” and used my .30s and 7mms for the long shots.

Once I started killing using impact velocity as the metric instead of ft lbs, I found that kills came just the same; and allowed me to use my .243 and .260 at much longer ranges.

There’s a lot more to the story as I’ve used “match” and “tipped” style bullets for 10 seasons now, and learned a lot on deer and elk using those. Much to the dismay of several folks I shot and hunted with, but I was still misinformed on “energy” for a long time after.

Impact velocity is only half of what is needed. To say energy is meaningless and impact velocity alone is all that matters is an incorrect statement.

Work is done on the bullet to cause it to fragment. Velocity alone does not do that...

 

[Formidilosus]

I have had better luck thru bones and shoulders with larger cartridges. I have never had a reason to try something smaller.

Since you brought me into it with your comments, how can you have “better luck”, if you’ve never tried it?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Impact velocity is only half of what is needed. To say energy is meaningless and impact velocity alone is all that matters is an incorrect statement.

Work is done on the bullet to cause it to fragment. Velocity alone does not do that...

Who said it’s meaningless? It’s only meaningless as a killing metric when attempting to equate it with some sort of value. It’s still a part of the killing equation, yes, but stating a certain amount of ft lbs of energy across the board and bullet to bullet or broad head to broad head or pointed stick to pointed stick (like say 1,500 ft lbs for elk) is just plain incorrect.

 

[bowrunner81]

Impact velocity is only half of what is needed. To say energy is meaningless and impact velocity alone is all that matters is an incorrect statement.

Work is done on the bullet to cause it to fragment. Velocity alone does not do that...

I would say the mechanism is velocity and velocity alone. Work is done - true. Energy is transferred - true. But they don’t cause the bullet to expand. I believe the transfer is a byproduct of the bullet fragmenting due to the bullet hitting the animal and the bullet deforming or fragmenting. My thoughts

 

[HuntHarder]

Since you brought me into it with your comments, how can you have “better luck”, if you’ve never tried it?

You are right, I should have worded it "great luck" not better.

*edited it for you

 

[Formidilosus]

You are right, I should have worded it "great luck" not better.

Ok.

With the ELD-X thread- do you actually believe 2 inches of muscle is stoping a 143gr bullet doing mid 2,000 fps? Ignore the pictures and the posts, just ask yourself if that is a thing.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

How often have you seen a ballistics gel test where a bullet penetrated 2 inches and stopped. I just doesn't happen. That's the reason for questioning it.

I’ve shot thousands of bullets into ballistics gel over the last 10 years. From at the muzzle to highly reduced loads simulating long range impacts.

Bare gel, gel with mediums in place to try and “catch” bullets (ply wood wrapped in cow or deer hides or carpet, etc), hardback books, paper back books, 4” of gel with medium placed directly behind it and then 4” more of gel immediately behind the medium, elk, deer, and cattle bones used as a medium. On and on…

You’re correct. It just doesn’t happen in any sort of measurable quantity with well constructed center fire bullets until the impact speed is low enough. Only on the mythical super ungulate shoulder do they bounce off or explode on impact.

 

[IDVortex]

Well, only elk ive killed in my life, used a 6.5 man bun to do it too, took two shots. Most hunters would say it failed. But, due to RS, I realized it's actually due to a badish shot. I had blood, but after about 100 yards I lost all blood, especially when she crossed a river.

Used a TSX, it fully expanded and stopped in the opposite shoulder, shot was 210ish yards. Shot high and back, clipped the lungs, had to take the second shot once I found her to put her down.

Lessons learned?

I wasn't comfortable taking the shot/rushed it, I made a bad shot, i needed a second round due to my own laziness/lack of training, not the caliber. Also, not all bullets are created equally, unless I have to use a all copper bullet, ill only use ELD-M or X for the aggressive expansion. I'd rather loose a little more meat but have more of a ethical kill on a animal.

Lastly, after this last year on trying to shoot more and different positions, I would not take that same shot as when I did with that cow.

Train more, pick better quailty bullets, and retrieval rates would rise.

Probably had nothing to help with this thread, but oh well.

(Fun fact, I am now wanting to get a 6cm, or even build a 6arc fur hunting and most likely will not use my 6.5 anymore)

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

It's the internet, we all have opinions, based on experience. I have had great luck thru bones and shoulders with larger cartridges. I have never had a reason to try something smaller. I see no reason not to shoot a larger cartridge if you can shoot it accurately and hit your intended target. Again, only my opinion and I have never said that a .223 would not kill any animal. It absolutely will, just won't be this guy shooting it.

That’s fair. So why are you in this thread then, and giving “advice” to people on something in which you have zero experience?

 

[Marbles]

Two deer, both shot with a 30-06 and 180 accubonds, no blood trail trails, so failure. Both recovered.

One bear shot with 30-06 and 180 accubonds, no blood trail, but recovered.

One other bear shot with 30-06 and 180 accubonds twice, ran off to never be seen again.

One caribou shout with 308 and 180 TTSX, no blood trail, ran pretty far, recovered.

One mountain goat shot with 108 ELDM, no blood trai, recovered.

One mountain goat shot with 108 ELDM twice, traveled 10 feet on its own power, massive blood trail, required a 3rd shot as it was still sitting up 10 minutes later.

All true, all lack a few details. Conclusions, 30-06 and 180 accubonds have a 100% failure rate....

 

[HuntHarder]

That’s fair. So why are you in this thread then, and giving “advice” to people on something in which you have zero experience?

Where in this thread did I give advice? Also, this is not a thread only about .223's. I have taken animals with plenty of 6mm, 6.5mm and larger.