.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Dave0317]

Small cal naysayers, this is your chance!

It seems like discussions happen in bits and pieces in lots of threads. The small caliber proponents have this unfairly massive amount of data all compiled in a few great threads.

So I think it would be helpful if the guys that think that is stupid have one consolidated place to share evidence of failures of the .223, 6, or 6.5 calibers using heavy for caliber match ammo.

You got a video of one of those splashy 147 ELDMs “blowing up” on the rib bone of an axis deer? You seen a .223 77 TMK bounce off an Elk?
This is the place to share!

 

[wapitibob]

Back in the early 80's I shot a Pronghorn Buck, less than 100 yards, with a borrowed 25-06. He dropped but then started to get back up so I shot him again. The 1st bullet hit a rib, followed the rib down, around the brisket, and half way up the other side, and never entered the chest cavity. That bullet was the size and thickness of a dime, just under the hide. No idea what ammo it was, but most likely some cheap Remington stuff or similar. 2nd shot to the neck worked just fine.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Reposted from a post of mine on another thread:

Here's an interesting bit of info regarding Barnes Match Burner 140's.

A buddy just killed an 11 year old ram here in Alaska with a 20" 6.5 CM.
He used the MB 140 factory ammo.
Muzzle Velocity appx. 2580 fps.

1st shot at 278 yards. Lungs. Ram started running towards him.
2nd shot at 203 yards. Lungs again. Ram ran closer.

Before 3rd shot was taken, he saw blood pouring out and decided to not shoot again.
Ram continued running downhill a couple hundred yards before expiring.

On the autopsy, he found that the exits wounds were only twice caliber size, ie. next to no expansion.
1st impact would have been at appx. 2250fps and second at 2350 fps.

Apparently the 140 variant of the Match Burner did not work as expected at those impact velocities.

Using my 6 CM and 112 Match Burners this season I’ve gotten fantastic results, including a Bull Moose at 525 yards and a Blacktail at 415. Both instances the MB created wide wound channnels and great expansion.

 

[KHntr]

Back about 1999 I shot a good whitetail that was downhill from me at roughly 250 yards and running broadside with a 264 WM and a 140 Nosler Partition. Smacked him right at the shoulder knuckle joint and that bullet turned and followed the front leg down, spiraling around it under the hide twice. Found it at the top of his hoof.

Shoot enough bullets into enough animals and you will see some weird shit happen. Doesn’t matter from what cartridge or company made them.

 

[eoperator]

Anyone got a match the dumpster is ready to be lit

 

[Tmac]

Might be better off to talk about bullets not to use for hunting. More about the bullets terminal performance than the caliber/cartridge imo.

 

[Machingeaneer]

What are we calling a failure here? I know a guy that calls SSTs "super soft turds" because they haven't exited regardless of the fact that they resulted in dead deer.

 

[Dave0317]

What are we calling a failure here? I know a guy that calls SSTs "super soft turds" because they haven't exited regardless of the fact that they resulted in dead deer.

failure to kill when the bullet is put in a place that a larger more “traditionally appropriate” caliber for a given game animal would be likely to cleanly kill.

Lots of people out there claiming they would never use a .243 or similar on elk because you obviously need more “whatever” to kill them. Whether that is bullet diameter, weight, energy, etc.

There are many pages of evidence that a well constructed bullet, heavy for caliber, above minimum bullet upset threshold velocity, kill just fine. This is a thread for anyone that has solid evidence that those bullets will fail to kill, blow up on ribs, don’t have enough energy etc.

Maybe it’s a bit tongue in cheek, because there is such a substantial body of evidence that shows excellent would channels from the above mentioned bullets.

None the less, if there truly exists some substantial evidence that we should not shoot big game with 223, 6mms, etc, I’d like to see it.

 

[N2TRKYS]

The first deer I shot with a 223 and 77 TMK resulted in a deer that was extremely hard to find. If I had shot it in the late evening, instead of mid morning, I wouldn’t have found it. I wasn’t real happy with the performance, so I’ll be testing some different bullets this year.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

How will they know the bullet “failed” unless the animal is recovered and photos of the damage (or lack of damage) are recorded? Otherwise the entire thread will be “stories” and “hearsay”.

If someone has a failure post to share, I think it should include photographic evidence of said “splashes” or “blow ups”. The only way anyone would know that either of those things happened is if they recover a dead animal.

Please include photos to backup claims so we can all potentially learn something.

 

[Stickmark]

Science

 

[ElPollo]

Science

Do you mean pictures?

 

[WeiserBucks]

How will they know the bullet “failed” unless the animal is recovered and photos of the damage (or lack of damage) are recorded? Otherwise the entire thread will be “stories” and “hearsay”.

If someone has a failure post to share, I think it should include photographic evidence of said “splashes” or “blow ups”. The only way anyone would know that either of those things happened is if they recover a dead animal.

Please include photos to backup claims so we can all potentially learn something.

The complete dismissal of anyone's experience due to lack of pictures is a crock. According to Rokslide anyone who doesn't have a picture to back up everything they say is full of shit.

Rokslide version of history began with the ability to post pictures on the internet, everything before that is stories and heresay.

 

[Stickmark]

Do you mean pictures?

Pictures would be nice, but I appreciate the whole idea of evidence-based discussion (I have read the entire .223 thread, and it changed my attitude towards practice, even with bow and bird guns) . My gut feeling is that if this thread evolves, we might underscore even more bullet choice importance.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

The complete dismissal of anyone's experience due to lack of pictures is a crock. According to Rokslide anyone who doesn't have a picture to back up everything they say is full of shit.

Rokslide version of history began with the ability to post pictures on the internet, everything before that is stories and heresay.

Here’s a giant hint for you… People lie to prove a point all the time, especially on the internet. Blindly believing anyone’s “experience” with no proof is a crock. #metoo

 

[WeiserBucks]

Here’s a giant hint for you… People lie to prove a point all the time, especially on the internet. Blindly believing anyone’s “experience” with no proof is a crock. #metoo

I get that point completely. It's just that this place has a strong tendency to dog pile people who claim anything without a picture to back it up.

 

[ElPollo]

Here’s a giant hint for you… People lie to prove a point all the time, especially on the internet. Blindly believing anyone’s “experience” with no proof is a crock. #metoo

I’m not going to suggest that people are lying, but experience without evidence and documentation is just someone’s interpretation/opinion.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I’m not going to suggest that people are lying, but experience without evidence and documentation is just someone’s interpretation/opinion.

This is a perfect example of my point ^^^

I killed a deer and elk this fall. Posted a picture of the elk but not the deer. Soooooo, I guess the elk I killed is a fact but the deer I killed is just an interpretation/opinion.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This is a perfect example of my point ^^^

I killed a deer and elk this fall. Posted a picture of the elk but not the deer. Soooooo, I guess the elk I killed is a fact but the deer I killed is just an interpretation/opinion.

You aren’t attempting to “invalidate” anything in that instance and that’s a poor comparison.

This thread is “show and tell” for bullet failure. If all we get is “tell” we don’t learn anything.

 

[WeiserBucks]

You aren’t attempting to “invalidate” anything in that instance and that’s a poor comparison.

This thread is “show and tell” for bullet failure. If all we get is “tell” we don’t learn anything.

I'm mostly in agreement, probably starting my period and irritable.