22 Creedmore legal use issues!

[mt terry d]

Are you of the opinion that the constitution and its laws have nothing to do with morality or ethics?

I am all in on small government and less government. All in a DOGE reducing it by 75%! Let's go!

If you do shot a G bear with a 22 - use a single shot and let me watch, from about 500 yards away.

The constitution has little to do with ethics or morality other than theoretically
limiting government. Gee, that worked well, right?


This part of the DOI pretty much sums up the maximum extent that
any government can morally or ethically do:
""When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."[69]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...."

So anything more than enforcing the Laws of Nature and of Nature's Got to which we are all entitled is Bull$hit.

Not to mention the "consent of the governed" part (see my signature line below).
How many alive today consented to this bloated oppressive rights-abusing
government we have today? Please give a show of hands.

As far as shooting a griz with a single shot 22 rimfire I have no plans but I'm all for anyone who wants to . As I said previously, More Darwin.

 

[Article 4]

If you figured out one and didnt go backwards you cheated yourself.

View attachment 817751

The constitution has little to do with ethics or morality other than theoretically
limiting government. Gee, that worked well, right?


This part of the DOI pretty much sums up the maximum extent that
any government can morally or ethically do:
""When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."[69]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...."

So anything more than enforcing the Laws of Nature and of Nature's Got to which we are all entitled is Bull$hit.

Not to mention the "consent of the governed" part (see my signature line below).
How many alive today consented to this bloated oppressive rights-abusing
government we have today? Please give a show of hands.

As far as shooting a griz with a single shot 22 rimfire I have no plans but I'm all for anyone who wants to . As I said previously, More Darwin.

Good points from your perspective and I appreciate the passionate response. I disagree on some of it

The preamble is not law nor the basis of law. It is the "why" behind writing the document.

The articles and sections of the document outline how those will be managed, in conjunction with the bill of rights. Section 1 places the legislative powers in congress to make, change, and amend those laws based on the bill of rights (the first laws). The Bill of Rights is all about morals. Whether those representatives are moral or not - don't get me started!!

I agree in the consent of governed and agree that we aren't signing up for the bloat - I hate it too and fight against is as hard as I can lawfully.

I don't want to hunt one that way either. Probably take my 458 honestly.

I was a big "don't regulate my hunting" guy for a long time. One the the reasons I am more in favor of guidelines now is due to what I see happening in the places I hunt. Guys with all sorts of calibers, rifles, and kit that they know not how to hunt with. Shoot or try to shoot critters that they wound or aren't sure they wound and spend days in the woods chasing game away while they try to find it. Will mandating everyone to use a 30 cal magnum solve the issue? Probably not, but requiring some minimum value certainly cannot hurt.

 

[KHntr]

I was a big "don't regulate my hunting" guy for a long time. One the the reasons I am more in favor of guidelines now is due to what I see happening in the places I hunt. Guys with all sorts of calibers, rifles, and kit that they know not how to hunt with. Shoot or try to shoot critters that they wound or aren't sure they wound and spend days in the woods chasing game away while they try to find it. Will mandating everyone to use a 30 cal magnum solve the issue? Probably not, but requiring some minimum value certainly cannot hurt.

I have a question…

Have you read the 223 thread? Legit question.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I was a big "don't regulate my hunting" guy for a long time. One the the reasons I am more in favor of guidelines now is due to what I see happening in the places I hunt. Guys with all sorts of calibers, rifles, and kit that they know not how to hunt with. Shoot or try to shoot critters that they wound or aren't sure they wound and spend days in the woods chasing game away while they try to find it. Will mandating everyone to use a 30 cal magnum solve the issue? Probably not, but requiring some minimum value certainly cannot hurt.

I was party to three rodeos this year.

1) Montana elk, archery. First morning one of the guys in camp shot a nice 6X6 just before sunrise. Over the course of the next 3 days, all of us spent time looking for that elk. The guide that was with him stated "If I had to tell someone where to shoot, I would tell them to hit right where that arrow hit.", so a confirmed "good hit". The arrow set-up was a 29" arrow, 395 grain total weight with a Sever 1.5 broadhead. We never did find that elk.

2) Decent WV 8-point, archery (crossbow). Shot was a little far back and low. NAP Spitfire Crossbow broadhead. We tracked the deer for about a 1/2 mile before it hit the river and we lost it.

3) SC whitetail (4 or 5 point), gun. Shot was about 80 yards to a feeder. Gun was a Howa 30-06 shooting Federal 165 grain Trophy Bonded Tip ammo. Shooter said the shot was good. We found blood and hair at the location the deer was standing. Followed blood drops for about 300 yards before losing the trail. My beagle followed the track for about another 350 yards before we lost it.

These are not the first or last rodeos that I have had with bow hunters using light arrows with expandable broadheads. Should they be regulated out? And the 30-06 should be more than enough for our "tiny" southern deer, right?

 

[Article 4]

I have a question…

Have you read the 223 thread? Legit question.

Dont think I have...

 

[Article 4]

I was party to three rodeos this year.

1) Montana elk, archery. First morning one of the guys in camp shot a nice 6X6 just before sunrise. Over the course of the next 3 days, all of us spent time looking for that elk. The guide that was with him stated "If I had to tell someone where to shoot, I would tell them to hit right where that arrow hit.", so a confirmed "good hit". The arrow set-up was a 29" arrow, 395 grain total weight with a Sever 1.5 broadhead. We never did find that elk.

2) Decent WV 8-point, archery (crossbow). Shot was a little far back and low. NAP Spitfire Crossbow broadhead. We tracked the deer for about a 1/2 mile before it hit the river and we lost it.

3) SC whitetail (4 or 5 point), gun. Shot was about 80 yards to a feeder. Gun was a Howa 30-06 shooting Federal 165 grain Trophy Bonded Tip ammo. Shooter said the shot was good. We found blood and hair at the location the deer was standing. Followed blood drops for about 300 yards before losing the trail. My beagle followed the track for about another 350 yards before we lost it.

These are not the first or last rodeos that I have had with bow hunters using light arrows with expandable broadheads. Should they be regulated out? And the 30-06 should be more than enough for our "tiny" southern deer, right?

I hear you - there are always going to be one offs and stories. Had a few myself.

I am a fan of the way they do it in some countries in Africa and in Europe. It seems to me is that it has to do with weight and anatomy of the game. They aren't laws per say, except for the dangerous game requirements, but most outfitters will tell you not to bring a 243 for everything.

• Pretty much anything goes for small and mid sized game. Use what you want as long as you use a well constructed bullet - springbok, klipspringer, bushbuck, warthog, impala etc...
• Larger game - Gemsbok, Kudu etc...they recommend at least a 270 with a larger bonded or well constructed bullet. Why? They know the likelihood of killing is higher.
• Larger game and dangerous game - some like the Eland they recommend a 7 or 30 cal. Dangerous game has always been 375 or larger

I don't intend this to be a direct application to the US but I do like the way they think about it and would be a fan of guidelines that had some of this kind of thinking

 

[KHntr]

Dont think I have...

Ok. Fair enough.
Can I ask a favor? You don't owe me anything at all, but I'm going to ask if you would read the first 10 pages of the 223 for everything under the sun thread.

Not even 2% of the thread. Just so that you can see the perspective that some of us have when it comes to effectiveness as it relates to bullet choice.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I’m having my next 22 Creedmoor barrel stamped 6.5x224 so I’m good to go!

Also, my lead bullets in liberal states like California identify as copper so I’m good there too.

 

[hereinaz]

I was a big "don't regulate my hunting" guy for a long time. One the the reasons I am more in favor of guidelines now is due to what I see happening in the places I hunt. Guys with all sorts of calibers, rifles, and kit that they know not how to hunt with. Shoot or try to shoot critters that they wound or aren't sure they wound and spend days in the woods chasing game away while they try to find it. Will mandating everyone to use a 30 cal magnum solve the issue? Probably not, but requiring some minimum value certainly cannot hurt.

How do you know the details about all the guys/rifles/kit out there wounding animals?
What do you do to survey them about the rifles and kit that are ruining your hunt?
How many hunters have you actually encountered this season?
Do you agree that shot placement is paramount above caliber displacement?
If shot placement is paramount, isn't the shooter's skill the greatest problem?
Did you confirm the caliber and cartridge?
Did you confirm their proficiency with firearms?
Couldn't it be that they just suck?
If the problem isn't the headstamp, would you then require training and proficiency tests for?
What if they had a 30 cal magnum, but it causes them to flinch?
What would you tell them to do?
Should youth be prevented from hunting, because they probably wound more animals as a class of hunters?
If you haven't read the massive .223 thread with hundreds of pictures to show the effects, do you believe that you have a fully informed decision?

 

[Teodoro]

I was verifying something about my state's laws the other day. When I Googled it, the AI-generated summary hallucinated a caliber restriction that does not exist here.
So just a reminder that if you're Googling the regs, don't rely on the summary, click through to the actual document.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I was verifying something about my state's laws the other day. When I Googled it, the AI-generated summary hallucinated a caliber restriction that does not exist here.
So just a reminder that if you're Googling the regs, don't rely on the summary, click through to the actual document.

Yep. You gotta be careful with blindly copying and pasting AI text

But yeah, read the official state sites regs or go to the closest office and ask for a copy. I usually grab a hard copy on my way in to the states I hunt each year if time allows.

 

[Article 4]

How do you know the details about all the guys/rifles/kit out there wounding animals?
What do you do to survey them about the rifles and kit that are ruining your hunt?
How many hunters have you actually encountered this season?
Do you agree that shot placement is paramount above caliber displacement?
If shot placement is paramount, isn't the shooter's skill the greatest problem?
Did you confirm the caliber and cartridge?
Did you confirm their proficiency with firearms?
Couldn't it be that they just suck?
If the problem isn't the headstamp, would you then require training and proficiency tests for?
What if they had a 30 cal magnum, but it causes them to flinch?
What would you tell them to do?
Should youth be prevented from hunting, because they probably wound more animals as a class of hunters?
If you haven't read the massive .223 thread with hundreds of pictures to show the effects, do you believe that you have a fully informed

Ok. Fair enough.
Can I ask a favor? You don't owe me anything at all, but I'm going to ask if you would read the first 10 pages of the 223 for everything under the sun thread.

Not even 2% of the thread. Just so that you can see the perspective that some of us have when it comes to effectiveness as it relates to bullet choice.

@KHntr. Appreciate the polite ask.

I feel like it’s a moot point. The small caliber guys are never going to change their minds. Likely that me and many other large caliber wont either.

The arguing has gotten pointless and personal. I’m kinda done with it.

I’ll try to read it but no promises.

@hereinaz. nope. not gonna happen. pointless. so say what you will. I’m good.

 

[KHntr]

@KHntr. Appreciate the polite ask.

I feel like it’s a moot point. The small caliber guys are never going to change their minds. Likely that me and many other large caliber wont either.

The arguing has gotten pointless and personal. I’m kinda done with it.

I’ll try to read it but no promises.

@hereinaz. nope. not gonna happen. pointless. so say what you will. I’m good.

Never hurts to ask.
Just give the first 10 pages a look, even if you just skim it and look at the pictures. If nothing else, there are some great pics of animals you don’t often see, like walrus, or grizzlies. (Although those pics are a few hundred pages deep I think.)

I’m not trying to change your mind, I just wanted to show you where this side of the discussion comes from is all.

 

[Article 4]

Never hurts to ask.
Just give the first 10 pages a look, even if you just skim it and look at the pictures. If nothing else, there are some great pics of animals you don’t often see, like walrus, or grizzlies. (Although those pics are a few hundred pages deep I think.)

I’m not trying to change your mind, I just wanted to show you where this side of the discussion comes from is all.

There is no argument when a guy uses a 223 to kill a walrus. If it was a one shot kill, you have a 100% outcome. To me its about controlling variables if you don't make the perfect shot in the field 100% off the time.

Is the thread called "223 for everything under the sun?"
I put that in the search bar and it didn't come up.

I did some more reading last night. Found a couple of items that seems to align to the conversation. They are by Brian Litz - Most folks would respect what his shop puts out. Interested in your take on it.

White paper is about extending the max range of small arms - he uses hit rates, field variables, energy transfer, lethality and MER for an 80 grain bullet. He makes some great points and provides great information across the board.

The two attachments are of a comparison of hit rates in the wind between larger and smaller bullets. Its not 223. It is a 175 grain bullet versus a 230 grain bullet at the exact same velocity. not hard to extrapolate to our conversation though.

@Erik1972 - some good info for whatever your decision might be

 

[mt terry d]

Guys with all sorts of calibers, rifles, and kit that they know not how to hunt with. Shoot or try to shoot critters that they wound or aren't sure they wound and spend days in the woods chasing game away while they try to find it.

Laws won't change that.Like Prohibition or the War on Drugs.

Will mandating everyone to use a 30 cal magnum solve the issue? Probably not, but requiring some minimum value certainly cannot hurt

It would hurt people's ability to learn to shoot accurately. It also helps people accept
more and more violations of their natural rights, which is of much greater import
than hunting.

Appreciate your response(s).

 

[Article 4]

Laws won't change that.Like Prohibition or the War on Drugs.



It would hurt people's ability to learn to shoot accurately. It also helps people accept
more and more violations of their natural rights, which is of much greater import
than hunting.

Appreciate your response(s).

Appreciate yours - for me they are two separate things.

I think there is always going to be a visceral response to someone thinking "they are taking away my rights" In some cases I am at the front of the line!

As a reference in hunting, should a guy shoot an elk with a 100 grain arrow and a field point just because he can? States have minimum requirements for broad head size, arrow weight, bullet size for Mzl Ldrs and projectiles. When that happened did those hunters quite hunting because of it? Don't know..but my guess would be no.

I am with you, I would not ask a new shooter to learn with a 30 Nosler.

I guess I think about the difference between learning to shoot correctly and using a larger game caliber for the purpose. I built my godson a 17 to learn to shoot and will let him use my 6CM with a 115 Berger to hunt his first deer. At some point, they are ready to move up to something bigger, likely with pretty good habits. That process has worked will with others I have helped.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I guess I think about the difference between learning to shoot correctly and using a larger game caliber for the purpose. I built my godson a 17 to learn to shoot and will let him use my 6CM with a 115 Berger to hunt his first deer. At some point, they are ready to move up to something bigger, likely with pretty good habits. That process has worked will with others I have helped.

If the 6CM is adequate for deer when he is 17, why is it not adequate when he is "ready to move up"?

 

[Article 4]

If the 6CM is adequate for deer when he is 17, why is it not adequate when he is "ready to move up"?

Who said it wasn't adequate? A 6CM is a move up from a 17, which is the caliber and not his age. He can hunt here when he is 10 and it is appropriate for deer so, it is adequate

My thing is I would not use it on anything larger than deer nor would I teach him to do so.

 

[PBBananaHammock]

@KHntr. Appreciate the polite ask.

I feel like it’s a moot point. The small caliber guys are never going to change their minds. Likely that me and many other large caliber wont either.

The arguing has gotten pointless and personal. I’m kinda done with it.

I’ll try to read it but no promises.

@hereinaz. nope. not gonna happen. pointless. so say what you will. I’m good.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

To properly understand an opinion, you should familiarize yourself with the basis of that opinion. I would never debate a socialist without reading Carl Marx, and anyone who would, doesn’t actually have a well rounded knowledge of the subject. It’s not aids, you won’t catch something by doing a little light reading.

 

[Article 4]

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

To properly understand an opinion, you should familiarize yourself with the basis of that opinion. I would never debate a socialist without reading Carl Marx, and anyone who would, doesn’t actually have a well rounded knowledge of the subject. It’s not aids, you won’t catch something by doing a little light reading.

I should. You didn't even ask if I had.
Ill ask you, have you read all 176 pages?

I have read plenty of information on small bullets and calibers outside of this thread in hopes of averting confirmation bias. As a result, I am very comfortable with my stance.