22 Creedmore legal use issues!

[Article 4]

For real! Unbelievable opinion there. Sad to see.

Rules - the only thing that separates us from the animals

 

[hereinaz]

I live in hunt in states that have no centerfire rifle requirements however, I completely disagree with this policy when,

• We have minimum muzzleloader requirements - for moose, elk, sheep, and bear the min is .50 cal and deer sized and smaller it .45
• We have minimum arrow weight and pull weight requirements (300 grains and 40lbs)
• Minimum broad head cutting requirements 7/8 and .015 thick

The rule should be revisited and I would vote for minimum caliber and bullet weight requirements for anything larger than deer sized animals, including bears...

It’s a rabbit hole… what would your vote be and what is the reasons behind it?

What state is having a problem that other states are not because they don’t have standards.

What is the scientific standard behind the policy that you would define the minimum centerfire caliber?

Do you believe or have evidence that there an actual problem of undersized cartridges?

What do you do with the giant body of evidence that .223 kills effectively?

Poor marksmanship probably wounds more animals resulting in loss than .223 bullets. Would you require proof of proficiency?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

What an ignorant arguement

So in your mind, someone should shoot an elk or grizzly bear with a 22 rim fire because it’s their right to?

Here we go again lol.

 

[ElPollo]

I was a state F&W employee for a number of years. I feel for them on this issue because it’s a no-win situation. There is plenty of information showing that 22 centerfires are effective killers for big game. But they take a beating from old school people in the public if they adopt this, and the commissions are generally made up of people of similar minds who are not educated in ballistics.

The reality is that bullet construction and velocity are the determining factors for how well firearms kill. But you cannot use those as a basis for regulation. So they fall back on meaningless variables like bullet diameter and energy because they can be easily measured in the field by law enforcement.

I think this is changing largely due to the popularity of the 223/5.56, the growing evidence of its effectiveness on game, and the fact that more of the old school people age out of hunting every year. The 5.56 is the caliber that most of our military have learned to shoot with for over 60 years and that is expanding through the rest of the population. It will take time, but eventually the remaining large bore states will adopt a simple 22 centerfires requirement.

 

[eric1115]

Rules - the only thing that separates us from the animals

My dog has rules.

Moral agency is what separates is from animals (and a soul, though obviously not everyone believes that part)

 

[Carl Ross]

What an ignorant arguement

So in your mind, someone should shoot an elk or grizzly bear with a 22 rim fire because it’s their right to?

The only argument I was making, is that the apparent small government leanings expressed in your signature seem quite polar to your desire to add layers of rules to the game regulations.

As someone who does appreciate having a smaller government, here is the argument I will make. Just because something is a terrible idea, does not mean it should be illegal. People can sort things out themselves. Here in Montana I can hunt elk with a .17 Fireball with 20 gr Vmax's. I would never do so, and would discourage anyone else from doing so. But, I wouldn't advocate for a law against it.

 

[Grundy53]

So, I am researching 22 Creeds right now and watching lots of videos on them. I am having an issue understanding the legality of this caliber on game. Every state I hunt in for deer and bear, this caliber is too small and therefore illegal. But I watched two videos of very high profile hunters using this caliber in Texas and Idaho or Utah on deer and bear. I know in Colorado there is a minimum of .24 state wide on any game. I am confused?


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Pretty simple. Different states have different laws.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

 

[Grundy53]

The only argument I was making, is that the apparent small government leanings expressed in your signature seem quite polar to your desire to add layers of rules to the game regulations.

As someone who does appreciate having a smaller government, here is the argument I will make. Just because something is a terrible idea, does not mean it should be illegal. People can sort things out themselves. Here in Montana I can hunt elk with a .17 Fireball with 20 gr Vmax's. I would never do so, and would discourage anyone else from doing so. But, I wouldn't advocate for a law against it.

Sounds like he likes a nanny state.

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[ElPollo]

Rules - the only thing that separates us from the animals

Obviously, you have a poor understanding of animals.

 

[Article 4]

Here we go again lol.

Yup another small cartridge fan boy

 

[Article 4]

Obviously, you have a poor understanding of animals.

Ob

The only argument I was making, is that the apparent small government leanings expressed in your signature seem quite polar to your desire to add layers of rules to the game regulations.

As someone who does appreciate having a smaller government, here is the argument I will make. Just because something is a terrible idea, does not mean it should be illegal. People can sort things out themselves. Here in Montana I can hunt elk with a .17 Fireball with 20 gr Vmax's. I would never do so, and would discourage anyone else from doing so. But, I wouldn't advocate for a law against it.

I also agree in small government however freedom does not mean someone should do something that is inconsistent with right and wrong. In this case, the state agency put the requirements on paper - whether we agree with it is an INDIVIDUAL choice - so I make mine and so does someone else.

For those who think they "should" hunt with a 20 gr Vmax, great. Right now, they are allowed to, whether they should or not is up to them.

Ofcourse there is always an opportunity to test that theory of a 20gr Vmax on something like a Grizzly bear or other large dangerous animal. For me, Ill stick with larger going faster!

 

[Article 4]

Obviously, you have a poor understanding of animals.

My dog has rules.

Moral agency is what separates is from animals (and a soul, though obviously not everyone believes that part)

Agree with both - humans have rules too.

Moral agency is relative. Some have it and in some cases here, some don't.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Yup another small cartridge fan boy

I use what works. “Big” or “small”.

You need to gain a better and broader understanding of what works is all.

 

[Article 4]

I use what works. “Big” or “small”.

You need to gain a better and broader understanding of what works is all.

I use what works too - I use my 6CM on what I think is right, I also use my 470NE on what I think is right.

You need to quite assuming and being such a fanboy/lemming

@Erik1972 asked for opinion and feedback. I guess in your mind the only one that matters is yours annd the other lemmings - how democratic of you

 

[HuntHarder]

 

[ElPollo]

People can talk all they want about the role of government regulation, sketchily defined moral high grounds, etc. There are piles of data supporting the fact that 22 centerfires are effective for harvesting big game. The vast majority of state F&W agencies agree. The rest will eventually follow along.

 

[Jason Snyder]

At risk of getting chastised again, go hunting. Go fishing. Work out. Do gear maintenance. Reload ammo…

Who cares what anyone shoots or thinks they should shoot?

 

[ElPollo]

Ob

I also agree in small government however freedom does not mean someone should do something that is inconsistent with right and wrong. In this case, the state agency put the requirements on paper - whether we agree with it is an INDIVIDUAL choice - so I make mine and so does someone else.

For those who think they "should" hunt with a 20 gr Vmax, great. Right now, they are allowed to, whether they should or not is up to them.

Ofcourse there is always an opportunity to test that theory of a 20gr Vmax on something like a Grizzly bear or other large dangerous animal. For me, Ill stick with larger going faster!

That’s a red herring. No one has argued that anyone should use a 20 gr VMAX on big game. By the same argument one could select an inappropriate bullet for a 300 rum that was designed for varmints in a 30-30. Are you suggesting we should regulate that? This is exactly what state F&W agencies do not want to get into.

It’s apparent that you have as little knowledge about wildlife regulation and the process of developing and enforcing those regulations as you do about how animals think. This is sort of like me suggesting I should regulate how you should run a CNC mill or a lathe. I am not going to get into that lane, and I suggest you inform yourself more before meandering into this one.

 

[Article 4]

That’s a red herring. No one has argued that anyone should use a 20 gr VMAX on big game. By the same argument one could select an inappropriate bullet for a 300 rum that was designed for varmints in a 30-30. Are you suggesting we should regulate that? This is exactly what state F&W agencies do not want to get into.

It’s apparent that you have as little knowledge about wildlife regulation and the process of developing and enforcing those regulations as you do about how animals think. This is sort of like me suggesting I should regulate how you should run a CNC mill or a lathe. I am not going to get into that lane, and I suggest you inform yourself more before meandering into this one.

OH ok - 50 cent words,

So you support your premise with an Argument from Incredulity.

Yes, a guy did talk about a 20 gr Vmax - but I guess you skipped over that

You suggest ? You think too much of yourself

 

[Article 4]

At risk of getting chastised again, go hunting. Go fishing. Work out. Do gear maintenance. Reload ammo…

Who cares what anyone shoots or thinks they should shoot?

I hear you, no chastising from me. Just a different opinion that it appears I am not allowed to have.