215 Berger failure

[tdot]

Just a note for any of the guys that are concerned about drilling tips to help ensure expansion. You pobably really only need to drill your hunting rounds. From the limited testing I've done, my impacts/grouping didn't change. So I dont personally feel the need to drill every bullet I fire, only the handful I plan on taking hunting. For that matter, you could possibly just get away with ensuring there are no obstructions with a pin... but I havent tested that one. YMMV.

 

[Wapiti1]

A couple of comments on the pencil through discussions.

First, skin is elastic, so you rarely get an entrance or exit the size of the bullet mushroomed or not. It's a poor judge of what happened.

Exit wound size is determined by the pressure wave in front of the bullet, and bone fragmentation. Due to the different density constituents inside an animal the pressure wave may be large, small, growing or diminishing as the bullet travels through. Then add in the bullet shape and velocity are changing as well and every shot becomes a unique experiment.

As broz has mentioned, each bullet does its thing and we hope it performs under the conditions that we use it in. 100% is impossible in that set of circumstances.

We haven't even talked about bullets that impact and tumble. Which is actually what un-expanded bullets do inside animals. Once a bullet loses gyroscopic stability, it yaws and will always rotate, or tumble, around its center of gravity. There is a lifetime worth of reading on this from military testing of solid projectiles.

To sum it up, that's why we carry more than one round and reload for a follow up.

Jeremy

 

[Sako76]

Funny, I shot a Colorado 5x5 in his bed (2017) at 489 yards with a 168 Berger HVLD out of a Gunwerks 7mm RM just behind the shoulder and he had a tennis ball size exit hole. He did get up and make it to 539 yards where I finished him with a neck shot. Massive internal damage to lungs and surrounding tissue, I'm surprised he got out of his bed.

 

[WCB]

IMO Berger builds accurate bullets. They don't build quality constructed hunting bullet.

 

[Vandy321]

IMO Berger builds accurate bullets. They don't build quality constructed hunting bullet.

Very insightful.

 

[RaggedHunter]

IMO Berger builds accurate bullets. They don't build quality constructed hunting bullet.

You got the accurate part right.. and accuracy is THE most important factor.

But I disagree with you about them not being a good hunting bullet. A bullet does not need to be bonded to be good at killing. I prefer the performance of Berger bullets on game over other "hunting" bullets.. Bergers do a damn fine job at KILLING pretty much across the board. That qualifies as a pretty well constructed hunting bullet in my book.

 

[Broz]

You got the accurate part right.. and accuracy is THE most important factor.

But I disagree with you about them not being a good hunting bullet. A bullet does not need to be bonded to be good at killing. I prefer the performance of Berger bullets on game over other "hunting" bullets.. Bergers do a damn fine job at KILLING pretty much across the board. That qualifies as a pretty well constructed hunting bullet in my book.

I agree, Nothing kills faster that destroyed vitals and huge internal oil leaks.

Jeff

 

[WCB]

You got the accurate part right.. and accuracy is THE most important factor.

But I disagree with you about them not being a good hunting bullet. A bullet does not need to be bonded to be good at killing. I prefer the performance of Berger bullets on game over other "hunting" bullets.. Bergers do a damn fine job at KILLING pretty much across the board. That qualifies as a pretty well constructed hunting bullet in my book.

I'm definitely not saying they haven't killed a pile of animals. But, by far the #1 complaint on Berger bullets I hear are bullet performance issues...and more specifically inconsistency of bullet performance. Never said a bullet had to be bonded to be a good bullet. Bullet construction is more than just bonded vs jacketed/cup core.

 

[tdhanses]

I'm definitely not saying they haven't killed a pile of animals. But, by far the #1 complaint on Berger bullets I hear are bullet performance issues...and more specifically inconsistency of bullet performance. Never said a bullet had to be bonded to be a good bullet. Bullet construction is more than just bonded vs jacketed/cup core.

People tend to always blame the equipment when something doesn’t work out vs using their equipment within its limits. I would be willing to bet most complaints on Berger’s are people think they should be able to shoot anywhere.

 

[Cahunter805]

People tend to always blame the equipment when something doesn’t work out vs using their equipment within its limits. I would be willing to bet most complaints on Berger’s are people think they should be able to shoot anywhere.

Or people make a bad shot and blame the bullet.

 

[WCB]

People tend to always blame the equipment when something doesn’t work out vs using their equipment within its limits. I would be willing to bet most complaints on Berger’s are people think they should be able to shoot anywhere.

Trust me I deal with it daily in my job...There is large number of people that have no idea where they hit an animal or if they hit them and complain. Then there are the guys that complain because an animal didn't "drop right there" and ran 20ft.

I'm talking about people who have shot these bullets and the bullet comes apart "to soon" and doesn't get good penetration or get no expansion (and yes it does happen it is not always the remaining core going through). Again the #1 issue I hear from guys with Bergers is lack of consistency. Will every bullet expand exactly the same...NO...trust me I know this. But,

One thing I can concede is in agreement to what BROZ said "The trick is to find what shines for your needs and more so yet, know where it will fall short of your needs."

If you have confidence in it give it hell.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I’ve watched 10+ animals, elk, antelope and a pile of mule deer dropped in their tracks with neck shots that didn’t touch spine... I’m talking dead on impact.... from distances all over the board out to 800.

Lol. You "watched" which means you didnt shoot them personally. Which also means you probably didnt cut the meat up to see the actual damage in the neck.

If they dropped dead in their tracks with a neck shot, the spine was broken or damaged enough to permanently separate the signals from the brain to the body.

 

[406Backwoods]

I know this thread is old but I wanted to add more information. Particularly in regards to the internal organs being mush and only having caliber sized entrance and exit holes. The only way for the organs to have been destroyed is through bullet expansion. The only time that a large temporary wound cavity is present is during expansion. When the bullet has expanded as far as it is going to, the temporary wound cavity collapses and if the bullet continues to penetrate, it leaves a wound channel nearly the exact size of the remaining expanded bullet size. The only other possibility would be that the bullet tumbled and exited point forward or backward. I’m sure the boys on the Accubond band wagon would argue that they don’t tumble. I’ve had a Berger “fail” on a whitetail at 550 yards. However, I failed to put that bullet exactly where it needed to go and thus, can only blame myself. It is important to understand terminal ballistics in these discussions though which is why I added this comment. If the vitals were turned to soup, the bullet expanded, regardless of what your exit hole looked like

 

[brant89]

Not the 215 hybrid, but I switched to the 208 LRHT this year in my 300WM and tested them out on some whitetail doe this summer (crop damage permits) from 150-500 yards and their performance was exactly what I was looking for. Big energy dump with massive exit wounds. I know I’m new on this particular site, but I think at some point every bullet design is going to have a failure. Manufacturing isn’t perfect and animals are not a uniform, consistent target medium. I also know that Broz has piled up a LOT of elk with Berger bullets.

 

[Huntthedistance]

I just think I’m my case. The Berger 215 is as close to perfect being there isn’t a perfect bullet.