215 Berger failure

[Tumbleweed]

Is there a reason you use the drill over a specific bullet pointer? I too see the tips are less than consistent, would like to try uniforming the tips as well, just not sure the best/most consistent way to do it.

These must have the tips open in order to work properly on game. Pointing the bullets would improve tip consistency and b/c but would be detrimental to terminal performance on game. As far as meplant trimming, it will decrease b/c slightly and Berger has said that it’s unnecessary anyway. That’s why I drill/check tips


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[YBPS]

It’s always ironic to me when someone has a “failure” but still has a dead bull. I only shoot Berger’s and I only take broadside shots. The 215 is my bullet of choice, a close second is the 180VLD out of the 7STW.

 

[Spoonman]

The bullet performance is absolutely inconsistent, as the performance is apparently highly variable depending on the amount of resistance encountered. I've heard similar deem other guys who no longer shoot Bergers. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable shooting a bullet that is that finicky as to what you have to hit to get adequate performance.

Umm what? Shooting a bullet into something that has a different density than something else in no way determines if a bullet is inconsistent, it simply shows that what you hit with that bullet is either more dense or has a higher “resistance “. That’s like saying that any given top of the line projectile would perform exactly the same if you shot a concrete block or a feather pillow

 

[Travis Hobbs]

Second, a neck shot NEVER drops an animal unless it hits and breaks the spine. It can be very deceiving where the spine is located in the neck at different angles.

I’ve watched 10+ animals, elk, antelope and a pile of mule deer dropped in their tracks with neck shots that didn’t touch spine... I’m talking dead on impact.... from distances all over the board out to 800.

None of which have been high BC target bullets... which imo is the worst thing to happen to long range hunting

 

[desertcj]

Do you guys not like Eld-Ms? My buddy and I killed 4 antelope last month at ranges from 150yds out to 530yds and they all showed massive expansion along with exits. I realize that an elk is at least twice as thick as an antelope, but based on what I saw I'd have no problem using them on elk.

 

[ckleeves]

I’ve watched 10+ animals, elk, antelope and a pile of mule deer dropped in their tracks with neck shots that didn’t touch spine... I’m talking dead on impact.... from distances all over the board out to 800.

None of which have been high BC target bullets... which imo is the worst thing to happen to long range hunting

What was hit if not the spine to drop them in their tracks?


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[Broz]

What was hit if not the spine to drop them in their tracks?

Well that is a very good question, and I will look forward to the answer. Neck muscle would not do it and neither would wind pipes. If you were lucky enough to only get the main artery and not the spine they will bleed out, but I have seen elk go a long ways leaking from this shot. In my experience the only way to drop them in their tracks from a neck shot is to take out the central nervous system ( Spine)

 

[ckleeves]

Well that is a very good question, and I will look forward to the answer. Neck muscle would not do it and neither would wind pipes. If you were lucky enough to only get the main artery and not the spine they will bleed out, but I have seen elk go a long ways leaking from this shot. In my experience the only way to drop them in their tracks from a neck shot is to take out the central nervous system ( Spine)

Exactly. Any animal that drops in its tracks from a neck shot the cns was hit one way or another. A neck meat shot doesn’t really even phase an elk unless thru bullet fragmentation the cns is affected.

If it was where the neck meets the shoulders I’m guessing that’s in front of the scapula and above the spine which I wouldn’t expect to be lethal.

I have watched enough guys try to deliver a finishing shot on animals at point blank range in the neck and miss anything vital to know that neck shots aren’t exactly a sure thing.


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[Travis Hobbs]

What was hit if not the spine to drop them in their tracks?


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Muscle, tissue/hide, veins, Arteries, Wind pipe, etc.

In my not so humble opinion, a good hunting bullet doesn’t need bone and or heavy tissue to perform and should be capable of dropping serious energy in muscle tissue causing vital shock and instant death.

I’m not saying they are going to drop every time, nor should anyone shoot at the neck on purpose imo.... But the point I was making is, it happens, and they can and do drop, and for him to use the words NEVER happens is wrong.

I personally do not a agree with it now, but I grew up watching people take neck shots on purpose to save as much meat as possible, including heart, liver, etc most of these shots, taken with a soft jacket lead bullet out of a not so powerful gun.

I will say, this is indeed impossible to duplicate with many of today’s high BC, “LR” bullets will not perform without bone or heavy tissue.

 

[ckleeves]

Muscle, tissue/hide, veins, Arteries, Wind pipe, etc.

In my not so humble opinion, a good hunting bullet doesn’t need bone and or heavy tissue to perform and should be capable of dropping serious energy in muscle tissue causing vital shock and instant death.

I’m not saying they are going to drop every time, nor should anyone shoot at the neck on purpose imo.... But the point I was making is, it happens, and they can and do drop, and for him to use the words NEVER happens is wrong.

I personally do not a agree with it now, but I grew up watching people take neck shots on purpose to save as much meat as possible, including heart, liver, etc most of these shots, taken with a soft jacket lead bullet out of a not so powerful gun.

I will say, this is indeed impossible to duplicate with many of today’s high BC, “LR” bullets will not perform without bone or heavy tissue.

Are you saying a Berger or a Eld requires more velocity to upset then a soft jacket lead bullet or a bonded bullet?



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[Travis Hobbs]

Are you saying a Berger or a Eld requires more velocity to upset then a soft jacket lead bullet or a bonded bullet?



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No, what I am saying is the construction of many high BC, “Long Range” bullets are based on two things. Accuracy and Ballistic Coefficientcy. Performance is an afterthought. And as luck would have it, these bullets do a pretty damn good job killing shit and performing a good majority of the time... I would argue 90% of the time, they kick ass.

But, the other 10% ive witnessed “pencil holing” on multiple occasions. I’m talking complete failure.... I’ve witnessed failure from light to heavy... mostly VLD’s, but some hybrid as well, 160-230 grain, (the heavier and hybrid bullets seem to perform the best)

It doesn’t matter what ft/lbs energy a bullet has, if it pencil holes though and drops no energy. That’s bad bullet performance. It’s basically like hunting with field points archery hunting cause it’s the most accurate.

This is coming from a guy that was on that bandwagon and argued for Berger’s til I was blue in the face. The performance WHEN they work and when they hit bone/heavy tissue is unreal and the accuracy is second to none. I really hate even arguing because I know most guys won’t change. I was drinking the koolaid and no one could change my mind.

It took me 20+ animals and a couple of perfect storms to finally see it without doubt and later finally prove it to me to change my mind...but I learned my lesson. And since I’ve have watched others experience the same thing.

 

[Cahunter805]

No, what I am saying is the construction of many high BC, “Long Range” bullets are based on two things. Accuracy and Ballistic Coefficientcy. Performance is an afterthought. And as luck would have it, these bullets do a pretty damn good job killing shit and performing a good majority of the time... I would argue 90% of the time, they kick ass.

But, the other 10% ive witnessed “pencil holing” on multiple occasions. I’m talking complete failure.... I’ve witnessed failure from light to heavy... mostly VLD’s, but some hybrid as well, 160-230 grain, (the heavier and hybrid bullets seem to perform the best)

It doesn’t matter what ft/lbs energy a bullet has, if it pencil holes though and drops no energy. That’s bad bullet performance. It’s basically like hunting with field points archery hunting cause it’s the most accurate.

This is coming from a guy that was on that bandwagon and argued for Berger’s til I was blue in the face. The performance WHEN they work and when they hit bone/heavy tissue is unreal and the accuracy is second to none. I really hate even arguing because I know most guys won’t change. I was drinking the koolaid and no one could change my mind.

It took me 20+ animals and a couple of perfect storms to finally see it without doubt and later finally prove it to me to change my mind...but I learned my lesson. And since I’ve have watched others experience the same thing.

What LR bullet do you shoot now?

 

[Travis Hobbs]

What LR bullet do you shoot now?

My go to or the best bullet I have found for performance has been a 200 grain Nosler Accubond.

When time and conditions allow, I’m VERY cautiously, shooting Hornady ELD-X.

So far w/ a 212 grain ELD-X over the past 15 months, I’ve taken 2 bears, 4 mule deer, a whitetail and two elk and around 15 coyotes.... Great blood trails, great weight retention and some perfect mushrooms. Time will tell though and I’m not sold yet.

 

[Vandy321]

My go to or the best bullet I have found for performance has been a 200 grain Nosler Accubond.

When time and conditions allow, I’m VERY cautiously, shooting Hornady ELD-X.

So far w/ a 212 grain ELD-X over the past 15 months, I’ve taken 2 bears, 4 mule deer, a whitetail and two elk and around 15 coyotes.... Great blood trails, great weight retention and some perfect mushrooms. Time will tell though and I’m not sold yet.

My buddy same hunt as the cow I shot, had a 100% pass through on a cow with 28 Nosler Accubonds at 175 yards. At best it was a .30cal exit wound. Ribs in/ribs out, destroyed heart and lungs with hydrostatic shock it seemed, but bullet did not perform well

Take that for what its worth

 

[Travis Hobbs]

My buddy same hunt as the cow I shot, had a 100% pass through on a cow with 28 Nosler Accubonds at 175 yards. At best it was a .30cal exit wound. Ribs in/ribs out, destroyed heart and lungs with hydrostatic shock it seemed, but bullet did not perform well

Take that for what its worth

I’ve also heard of accubond failure, but I’ve never personally witnessed it.

The LR accubond is no good, but the white tipped original accubond has been money for me.

Curiously, Do you happen to know what grain bullet he was shooting out of his .28?

 

[Vandy321]

I’ve also heard of accubond failure, but I’ve never personally witnessed it.

The LR accubond is no good, but the white tipped original accubond has been money for me.

Curiously, Do you happen to know what grain bullet he was shooting out of his .28?

I do not, however he was pushing it about 3300 fps or so, if that helps...and a pencil through is pretty bad at that range and velocity.

She still dropped pretty quickly, with a heck of a blood trail, but still a failure to expand.

 

[204guy]

Vandy just because there wasn't a big exit doesn't mean it didn't expand. If the lungs were soup...it expanded.

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[Vandy321]

It was a pencil in, pencil out...again, not playing the expert, but it seemed like zero expansion to the untrained eye. I didnt get out the calipers, but the exit hole was at best .30 cal.

I'd imagine the lungs were damaged due to hydrostatic shock, which can be to a lesser extent still even with zero expansion? Regardless, she dropped so I guess it's a moot point.

 

[Broz]

I will say these things backed by many first hand sample data points. And this response is not aimed at any one post, but rather what I feel are some misconceptions in this thread. Or other thread I often read.

1: Many times a "pencil through" exit deemed as "Caliber size" is made from a fragment from a cup core designed bullet. Or a petal from a solid design. The majority of the bullet remained in the animal as it did its job. The term pencil through was started back when we actually had this happening from solid copper bullets that were praised as "Premium Hunting Bullets" And many time they did just that, "pencil through" This is much less of an issue with today's bullets, but the phrase has hung around to be used in many wrong instances.

2: A cup core high BC bullet does not need bone to initiate expansion. These bullets are used for long range because they are the easiest bullet design to get expansion started from low velocity impacts of long shots. Controlled expansion bullets, be it bonded or solid design, often do not offer what we need at these low impact velocities. These are the ones that need more impact velocity, bone or hard tissue to get proper expansion and the reason I don't use them. If there is any fault with the bullet design in question in this thread, it would be from too much expansion with high velocity impacts. That said I have drove them through elk vitals from quartering frontal shots to full broadside shots many times under 100 yards. And even with fast twist barrel and MV's over 3100 fps. They killed quickly.

3: In my, and many others experience, if you think one specific bullet will work the same in all conditions, well... it will not. Every bullet has a specific set of criteria where it shines best. The trick is to find what shines for your needs and more so yet, know where it will fall short of your needs.

4: Many times in these threads we see someone asking questions like " How are the Bla Bla Bla XYZ bullets for hunting" If you think that any bullet series, from any manufacturer, of any caliber and weight will work the same as a bullet from same series and the same manufacturer of a different caliber and weight. Well you simple are smoking crack. Weight to caliber ratio is just as important in cup core bullets as the impact velocity needed to open a solid design and why solid designs often seem to work better with lighter offerings that have higher MV's. You can not dictate how a bullet will work by its series name. A 30 cal 180 gr. Super Whiz-Bang XYZ will not work the same as a 30 cal 230 gr. Super Whiz-Bang XYZ even with the same impact velocities.

 

[Vandy321]

Thanks for the "pencil" clarification Broz! That makes sense to me. Either way it did it job, she dropped, I just though the berger performed better at close range which was surprising based on previous posts I've read.