2022 Oregon Archery Elk Proposal

[BRTreedogs]

Gotcha that makes sense. I don’t have enough points to draw anything really cool but I do have enough I sure as heck ain’t goin blow them on something I hunted the year prior.

I have 11 deer points and still can't draw anything cool.
Wife has 13 Elk and will never catch Emily or Walla

 

[Dirtscoots]

I have 11 deer points and still can't draw anything cool.
Wife has 13 Elk and will never catch Emily or Walla

I gave up on deer a long time ago. We make a “camping trip” with tags East every few years to just get away. Yeah I hear you tho I won’t ever catch the point creep to get a big unit unless I dumbed into the luck %

 

[pirogue]

OR is about the leader in Non-resident unfriendly states for allocation of elk tags, especially for branch antlered. Who wants to go there for a spike.

 

[Dirtscoots]

OR is about the leader in Non-resident unfriendly states for allocation of elk tags, especially for branch antlered. Who wants to go there for a spike.

If it makes you feel any better it really isn’t that great of a state to be a resident in either. We still can’t draw much better then a general hunt more then once in a lifetime. My first retirement goal is move to a better state to hunt in.

 

[Cameron.25]

If it makes you feel any better it really isn’t that great of a state to be a resident in either. We still can’t draw much better then a general hunt more then once in a lifetime. My first retirement goal is move to a better state to hunt in.

I agree! At least we have elk and some amount of opportunities. Best state on the west coast, tho thats not a very high bar lol

 

[pirogue]

If it makes you feel any better it really isn’t that great of a state to be a resident in either. We still can’t draw much better then a general hunt more then once in a lifetime. My first retirement goal is move to a better state to hunt in.

Agreed, and entirely qualified to comment. Lived there 18 years, and was glad to get out. Did draw(while there and make good on), the best they have to offer, which is The CA BHS.

 

[Dirtscoots]

I agree! At least we have elk and some amount of opportunities. Best state on the west coast, tho thats not a very high bar lol

True. I can’t be to bitter. I do normally see the field elk daily on my way to work. I suppose a lot of people don’t see elk until they are hunting them

 

[Baddog]

I have 5 buddies that are really archery hunters that apply for the hard to get rifle tags and then go archery every year. This will get them out of the rifle pool. I imagine there’s going to be a lot of shifting around. Will be interesting to see how it plays out over a couple years

 

[wapitibob]

This proposal has no "choose your weapon" component; applying for rifle and then hunting with a bow in the general units will continue.

 

[BRTreedogs]

This proposal has no "choose your weapon" component; applying for rifle and then hunting with a bow in the general units will continue.

For a few years tell all the poor people complain about crowding in those units. And it will keep shifting until everything is a draw.

 

[Baddog]

This proposal has no "choose your weapon" component; applying for rifle and then hunting with a bow in the general units will continue.

In my example they want to archery hunt the units that are going draw... but I get your points. The units that are general on the east side of the state are less desirable/have less elk. The “good” units are going to be draw only

 

[bhowren]

Just my opinion but I think the whole ODFW proposal is a joke, and more about revenue than hunting opportunities! Not sure the ODFW cares about game much anymore?.?. My proposal would be as follows:
1. For those that have been applying for years to one day draw their opportunity of a lifetime, this proposal is a huge slap in the face. Now I have to choose between burning my points for a hunt in a unit I have been able to hunt for years??? My suggestion would be to allow these people to put in for the draw without losing their other points until they use them on the hunt they have been applying for all this time. Once drawn they would start over. If they don't draw they add a point to their premium total. If they draw, their points stay the same.
2. Predators are the real problem with any game numbers, not hunters. Hunters have an opportunity to get 1 Elk/Deer a year, while predators kill several a year. If ODFW is serious about game numbers, allow Free and Unlimited Predator tags until numbers are at reasonable levels (for wolves, trap them and send them back to Alaska where they came from- this version of wolves is not native to here anyways!).
3. Since this isn't about revenue, Right ODFW- don't require a license for rifle hunters or archery hunters to put in for a controlled hunt application.
4. This one is for Rifle Hunters like my Brother and my Dad (When he Draws). Make some units Over the counter, where there is an Actual Elk population (slight exaggeration). They seem to take it in the shorts a lot trying to draw a semi-decent tag. When the alternative is hunting the Cascades, it is just sad!

These are a few suggestions. I am fully open to disagreement or additional suggestions. I haven't felt the ODFW listens to the public for a very long time. I remember when the Cascade season was later in the year (1980's) and there were actually elk there with better habitat (logging was actually allowed on Forest Service land). Many suggested moving the Cascades to 3 point or better to improve Elk numbers. We were ignored!

Also I do not buy their argument about equipment improving and closing the gap between success with archery and rifle hunting. Yes archery equipment has gotten better, but so has rifle technology. People shoot Elk at 1,000 yards now. Success rates have stayed similar for Rifle and Archery for a number of years. Their own website doesn't support this claim I believe. Love to hear other people's take.

 

[slick]

Just my opinion but I think the whole ODFW proposal is a joke, and more about revenue than hunting opportunities! Not sure the ODFW cares about game much anymore?.

I find irony in this statement. To me it seems they are trying to protect the game (lack of healthy bull:cow ratios) and increase hunt quality (reduce pressure and increase # of bulls available)

Also, I doubt it creates any new revenue because (as was stated above) most people already put in for the draw. Ie: your whole points argument. You’re already playing the draw, it’s not going to cost you more monetarily.

2. Not going to turn this about wolves but which is it? Alaska or Canada? The wolves introduced from Canada were much closer to the lower 48 than Alaska.

3. I agree predators can have an effect on game populations, but we can also have an effect on predator populations. 3 bear tags and 2 cougar tags for all- and is the most affordable hunt in OR.
Edit: if you draw a spring bear tag

4. The number of rifle hunters far outweighs the number of archery hunters. Therefore, the supply and demand of these hunts will always make it harder to draw a rifle tag.

5. They just changed the west Cascade bull season to later in the year.

 

[wapitibob]

This proposal has the ability to eliminate the crowding issues provided they limit the number of tags (nr will be cut to 5%.) It addresses the rifle draw inequity in all of the primary eastern Elk units. And, It maintains unlimited OTC archery hunting for those residents that don't draw an archery or rifle controlled hunt. It's the best option I've seen so far.

 

[Cameron.25]

If anything it seems like the revenue could go down a bit due to less non residents buying tags for mule deer and elk

 

[bhowren]

I find irony in this statement. To me it seems they are trying to protect the game (lack of healthy bull:cow ratios) and increase hunt quality (reduce pressure and increase # of bulls available).

This is only true if you believe that hunters are affecting the numbers. They are not! Predators Are! It seems they are only using this strategy on the East side of the state, where most populations are at or very near objective as well. Do they not care about Elk populations in the Cascades at all? I grew up hunting in Southwestern Oregon. Now where I used to hunt has almost NO population of Elk (Due to predators and poor habitat- not hunting in my view). Yet they will cause people that don't draw to saturate this area. The population of Elk in these General season areas are way below objective. Doesn't make sense to me! At least if their argument that hunting is affecting the numbers is supposed to be true?!?!

Also, I doubt it creates any new revenue because (as was stated above) most people already put in for the draw. Ie: your whole points argument. You’re already playing the draw, it’s not going to cost you more monetarily.

I know plenty of people that are happy with where they hunt now on the East side and don't waste money chasing point creep! I also know people that will put in second choices for their usual unit, on top of the unit they have a bunch of points saved for. What else can those of us in "No Man's Land" do??? They are painting us in a corner! These would All be added revenue.

2. Not going to turn this about wolves but which is it? Alaska or Canada? The wolves introduced from Canada were much closer to the lower 48 than Alaska.

Well, I believe they are Arctic Timber Wolves, so both I would think. I just figured we would put them in our own country, rather than send them to Canada. I just know they are a Much bigger strain of wolf than the smaller version that was native to this area. Thus less able to destroy Elk populations through Calf recruitment and other.

3. I agree predators can have an effect on game populations, but we can also have an effect on predator populations. 3 bear tags and 2 cougar tags for all- and is the most affordable hunt in OR.
Edit: if you draw a spring bear tag

Again, make it free until numbers are at objective. They already have the ability to suspend a hunt if the numbers get to objective. When I can go out in a day and see more Bears than deer, the population is probably too high! And while I don't see cougars as often, I see plenty of cougar kills. We haven't made a dent in predator numbers since dogs were banned! Need to change the approach in my opinion. give an incentive, like free and unlimited tags for those that actually hunt them (Bears and Cougars).

4. The number of rifle hunters far outweighs the number of archery hunters. Therefore, the supply and demand of these hunts will always make it harder to draw a rifle tag.

While I agree, it is causing issues. I know plenty of Rifle Hunters that have No Interest in Archery! Need to give them some sort of benefit! Otherwise we will continue to have a decreased interest in hunting. Hunting numbers are going down throughout the nation. Especially in our youth! The way our draw system is working (not working) for rifle hunters is souring many hunters I know around here. I know a lot of people who are planning to go out of state, or just not hunt at all. Not good for us! I don't want to see hunting end due to lack of interest.

5. They just changed the west Cascade bull season to later in the year.

I know. That is a positive, but it took this long to get it back to a decent time of year! I also like that it doesn't split deer season for the rifle hunters. I still think it should go 3 point or better, along with the predator hunting idea. Maybe with the fires, the Forest Circus will finally realize that selective thinning is needed for decreased fire danger, as well as promoting better wildlife habitat??? I think if al of these things happened, Elk populations could rebound in the Cascades.?.?

Thank you for the reply. I enjoy debating this with other avid hunters! The more ideas we can bring to the ODFW, the better!

 

[Dirtscoots]

Totally agree with all of your points. I personally think elk and deer should be 3 point or better. Slick does have data and “science “ on his side. I know this from a debate last week lol. My only concern is I do not trust or believe the numbers the state comes up with in their game surveys.

 

[wapitibob]

Pretty easy to meet management objectives when they’re the worst in the west at 10-15/100.

 

[roosiebull]

Well, can’t please everyone, haha... especially Oregon hunters and fishermen, hard group to please.

as bad as Oregon is, it would take a pretty special tag to get me away from chasing roosies locally.

I will always pick “give me a chance” every year vs a really good tag every 4 years. I would legitimately pick hunting around home every year vs weneha every 4 or 5 if I had to choose my future.

a lot of draw tags are crowded, low bull to cow, and bad age class... opportunity would have to be seriously limited to really change the landscape on quality.

i’m worried about the future, but I guess I could always move to Maui and hunt axis deer all year

ODFW gets a lot of criticism, and I think they could be better, like any organization, but I think they do better than most give them credit for. People bitch if their policies don’t line up with their wants, and make claims of mismanagement, but they collect data and use that data to manage wildlife.

the things that could improve things in this state are not realistic, due to politics... that gets confused with mismanagement.

control predators, change logging practices (not even drastically, just refined) and other things like access, out of the control of ODFW... I think they take more heat than is warranted

 

[slick]

It’s so hard to reply to everything I’d like to on my phone. I’m just going to re-read and edit as I go to try and get everything in.

Bhowren- I’m not sure how you can say hunter aren’t reducing bull elk numbers? Let’s use Desolation as an example.(2019 data- straight from ODFWs site and GoHunt’s)
Bull:cow - 6:100
Archery hunters 1562 @ 11% success rate 171 bulls killed
Spike hunters 536 @ 3% success rate
16 bulls killed
Rifle Any 1103 @ 14% success rate
154 bulls killed.
Based on 2019 rough population data for Desolation there was 1,100 elk.
At 6:100 bulls and 16:100 calf that’s roughly
~900 cows, ~144 calves ~54 bulls.
Obviously there are more than 54 bulls as there were 341 killed the season before, but as you can make out in a long term data set the trend is moving downhill.

Those bios have the ability to manage the rifle hunters, but cannot manage the number of tags for archery hunters under current structure. As you’ve stated archery success has remained largely the same, but the # of hunters continues to increase. So do you continue to “punish” the rifle hunters because the archery success claims 11% (in this instance it’s higher in other units) more harvest?

This isn’t about overall elk numbers. This is about bull numbers Vs bulls removed. Predators select for different sexes and age classes through out the year. Hunters on these tags are ONLY selecting for bulls.

The reason all of the units in the Blues and Wallowas went to draw was stated very clearly in their public release. If you only make Starkey controlled, that pressure will be put into other areas next door ie: desolation, sumpter, ukiah. Etc. The reason the cascades are general and the rest of eastern OR is because it’s doesn’t support the same number of animals and therefore becomes self limiting. The reason the NE tags have high pressure is because of the number of elk. Low density elk areas are unlikely to experience that same kind of pressure. But yes, it will go somewhere.

The “No Mans Land” hunters in your scenario are still playing the points game, so that is not added revenue (unless I misunderstood your wording) as someone else stated, the number of “no point” resident hunter’s (new) $8 app fee will likely not offset the number of (current structure) General Archery NR licenses funds. That’s a bit confusing but hopefully you pick it up- I’ll certainly clarify if it needs it.

You should probably do yourself a favor and kill 2-3 bears a year if you are seeing that many and invite friends along to boot. Help the local herds yourself, and maybe you do. I won’t get behind the free bear tags but could get behind a cougar permit just coming with a hunting license purchase. I could see the benefit in that.

If hunting numbers are going down across the nation how do you explain a 37% increase in Spring Bear applications in OR. That’s continually spouted but I just haven’t seen clear data that outlines that statement. If you have a source, I’m all ears. And again, this proposal is because of the increase in Archery hunters..

But thank you for the polite and respectful dialogue. I appreciate the discussion.

Dirstscoots - What about ODFW’s data collection process don’t you believe? They do it the same as SD, WY, MT, AZ, etc. and the “science” on point restrictions has been unanimous no matter what the state/providence. It’s not just an Oregon thing.

Rosie - i agree. I would take opportunity over quality any day. But the central blues are taking a beating by archery hunters, and Starkey (for example) at 6:100 bull:cow ratio needs to be limited in order for a healthy bull:cow ratio to re-establish.

If anyone is interested at a similar issue- look at elk unit 313 in MT, they had a severely low bull:cow ratio and had to implement controlled tags to manage hunters who are selecting ONLY for bulls. I will say it’s not entirely apples to apples but pretty close.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk