2014 enlightened equipment Enigma 20* extra long/wide

[Justin Crossley]

Jeff, I don't think the treated down will be slower to dry at all. Moist air will still move through the insulation layer as it does with regular down. With the treated down, it just won't "cling" to the down as easily making it breath that much better imo. This is all theory by the way.

Trevor will be able to really put this to the test this year. I'm sure we will have many days and nights with the new treated down next to the standard down and he can report back on how each dries side by side.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Trevor, I think for one of our tests I should dump water on you and Brock and see if you guys are alive in the morning. I would have to stay dry so I could document the results. HAHA

 

[orionsbrother]

Justin - I think it's laudable that you are willing to make sacrifices in the name of increasing humanity's general knowledge. Please be thorough with your documentation.

 

[Riverwalker]

Jeff, I don't think the treated down will be slower to dry at all. Moist air will still move through the insulation layer as it does with regular down. With the treated down, it just won't "cling" to the down as easily making it breath that much better imo. This is all theory by the way.

Trevor will be able to really put this to the test this year. I'm sure we will have many days and nights with the new treated down next to the standard down and he can report back on how each dries side by side.

The problem is, with regular down the moisture attaches to the down causing it to be less effective especially after 5-6-7 days. The idea is the treated down is suppose to repel the moisture to allow it to evaporate out. At least that why they are coming up with this treated down. I have had this happen many times with untreated down and have had to try to dry the bag ( sometimes with success, sometimes not) It's the nature of down.

 

[littlebuf]

ok, so i have a bit of a habit of crawling out of my tent in middle of the night before im all the way awake. justin and brock are actually a little jumpy because of it, but it keeps them on there toes. any way back to my point. last year in the middle of elk season we got an insane amount of rain. well one night i woke up half in and half out of my tent, i woke up because i was laying in about a half inch of water. really nothing i could do about it but say a few cuss words and crawl back in my quilt. so i did just that. you cant really get a more direct going into a down quilt scenario than that. directly from puddle to quilt, whole right side of my torso soaked. i crawled back in, tucked the pad attachments tight under me, pulled my beanie down and sucked the collar of the quilt up tight and went bac to sleep. not only did i wake up dry and warm but i slept in that same quilt for another week straight, getting into it in various stages from damp to dry. this was all after the rain storm that got it wet to begin with a few days before that. so i dont know what it was doing on a micro biological level but i know i went in wet,came out dry again and again. ill let you know how treated down does...

 

[Riverwalker]

ok, so i have a bit of a habit of crawling out of my tent in middle of the night before im all the way awake. justin and brock are actually a little jumpy because of it, but it keeps them on there toes. any way back to my point. last year in the middle of elk season we got an insane amount of rain. well one night i woke up half in and half out of my tent, i woke up because i was laying in about a half inch of water. really nothing i could do about it but say a few cuss words and crawl back in my quilt. so i did just that. you cant really get a more direct going into a down quilt scenario than that. directly from puddle to quilt, whole right side of my torso soaked. i crawled back in, tucked the pad attachments tight under me, pulled my beanie down and sucked the collar of the quilt up tight and went bac to sleep. not only did i wake up dry and warm but i slept in that same quilt for another week straight, getting into it in various stages from damp to dry. this was all after the rain storm that got it wet to begin with a few days before that. so i dont know what it was doing on a micro biological level but i know i went in wet,came out dry again and again. ill let you know how treated down does...

With results like that why buy the Drydown or Superdown or and treated down? Sounds like the down manufactures are wasting there time and money. Or maybe there scamming us,

 

[Justin Crossley]

We will know after this year for sure.

 

[orionsbrother]

Justin - hydrophobic materials are often but not always oleophilic. They can readily absorb oils. It would seem plausible to me that treated down might be more prone to absorbing skin oils. And that could result in the down clumping because of that absorption of skin oils. As was speculated about the jacket in the outdoor gear lab video. And it would seem plausible that washing with even a mild emulsifying agent could strip some or most of the water resistant chemical from the down. And it would seem plausible that using a liner or wearing clean clothing could reduce the transfer of skin oils and may be prudent. But this is ALL conjecture on my part. I do not have one second of first hand experience with treated down.

If you are willing to experiment on littlebuf in the name of the greater good, could you have him skip showering for a few days prior to your trips. And maybe have him pack a bunch of your heavy gear so that he builds up a good lather of stank. If he sleeps only in boxers, he could more easily transfer Eau de 'buf to the quilt, requiring that it be washed. Repeating the cycle frequently with your previously mentioned douses of water would potentially give us a good bit of data as to whether the water resistance of the down degraded over time.

Joking aside, I look forward to hearing how it performs with your practical experience littlebuf.

 

[Brock A]

Trevor, I think for one of our tests I should dump water on you and Brock and see if you guys are alive in the morning. I would have to stay dry so I could document the results. HAHA

Wtf dude!

 

[kodiakfly]

With results like that why buy the Drydown or Superdown or and treated down? Sounds like the down manufactures are wasting there time and money. Or maybe there scamming us,

With results like that, why buy synthetic? Sounds like manufacturers are scamming us with synthetic bags.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I don't know if anybody is scamming anybody. Just about all of the down bag manufacturers also make synthetic bags. I will be using a treated down quilt for all my hunts this fall including a goat hunt on The Rock, and a sheep hunt in the Brooks. I'll let you know how it goes kodiakfly, but you will probably have already made your choice by then anyway.

 

[Riverwalker]

He must have a special bag because my experience with down does not confirm those Kind of results. We are out for 10-15 days at a time with and without stoves and down bags always have to be dried.

 

[kodiakfly]

I don't know if anybody is scamming anybody. Just about all of the down bag manufacturers also make synthetic bags. I will be using a treated down quilt for all my hunts this fall including a goat hunt on The Rock, and a sheep hunt in the Brooks. I'll let you know how it goes kodiakfly, but you will probably have already made your choice by then anyway.

Maybe "scamming" isn't the right word, but I guess my point is what's the point of synthetic (other than price) if everyone using down has never had a problem with it getting wet?

I've never used treated down, but I still remember my MH down jacket getting caught in some rain and you could see the seams soaking water and shortly I had a soggy rag of a coat and was freezing my butt off. Fortunately I wasn't hunting, so I was able to go get another coat. But back to my earlier point, I get nervous having to rely on anything that requires a treatment or protective barrier to function. If water vapor can get out of a barrier as perspiration, why can't water vapor get in as humidity? I can take my Wiggy's or one of my synthetic bags as-is and use them in wet weather without much concern. I only carry a bivy for the event I end up on the ground in a sustained rain.

And I'm not anti-down. I love down and have a down bag. Here, I've always relied on synthetic...but if no one has ever had any problem getting soaked in down, or drying clothes in down....why am I carrying synthetic and why is there a synthetic market? I guess that's a rhetorical question...I've had down get soggy and die on me and I've never had a soggy issue with synthetic. But if the "new" down is so far superior as to make synthetic obsolete, let me know and I'll jump on the down bandwagon and save a few pounds in the pack.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I hear you. I've only worn/trusted down in conditions that were cold enough that if there was going to be precipitation, it would not be in the form of rain. The vast majority of my hunting takes place during the time of year when we are far more likely to get rain than snow. I typically take a very lightweight down jacket, which is packed into a very small dry bag, on all my hunts. I only use the down jacket when the conditions permit ie., no rain. Everything else that I wear for warmth is either prima loft or merino wool, and my sleeping bag has always been synthetic. This year I decided to take a leap of faith and purchased a few treated down items. I did this in an attempt to lighten my load and give treated down a shot. If I do end up regretting this, I hope that I at least live to regret it.

 

[Justin Crossley]

There's a difference between getting in a down sleeping bag wet and laying out in the rain in a down bag. I don't think anyone will say that down or treated down should replace synthetics for those situations where the gear itself will get wet.

I use down sleeping bags and quilts because I plan to keep them dry. Yes I will get in with wet clothes but I'm not careless.

I'm thinking that one of the things we should also add to our list of tests this year is to test the Enigma side by side with a quality synthetic bag. I'll talk to Aron about ordering a bag and we'll see how they compare in the exact same conditions.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I agree with Justin, I also don't think you can compare down Jackets to down sleeping bags. Totally different applications.

 

[Riverwalker]

Never got a drop of rain on my down. Condensation on top from moisture moving through the down and out the fabric. Leaves the down wet and less effective. Not an opinion scientific fact. (warm air hits cold)

 

[kodiakfly]

I agree with Justin, I also don't think you can compare down Jackets to down sleeping bags. Totally different applications.

How so? Down is down. I'm asking because I don't know. If the down in my coat can get wet and lose heat, why can't the down in a bag? (Yes, understanding a bag is typically used under a shelter and my coat got rained on.) That's like saying the merino in my socks won't insulate while wet, but the merino in my baselayer will.

Honestly asking because I don't know the answer.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I can pretty much guarantee my bag is not going to get rained on. My jacket eventually will get pretty wet one way or another. So to me its not about the down itself it more about the downs intended use. I had a down jackets shit the bed on me. It was cold and the brush was very wet, I had a good rain jacket over the down. This has made me a little gun shy about using down puffys, on the other hand I have no issue with a quality down bag.

 

[kodiakfly]

Ok, so it's the shelter aspect of it like I thought. Fair enough.