2 lost elk and conclusions.

[Short Track]

delete

 

[Formidilosus]

166 hammer going relatively fast...impact was prolly north of 2700 fps...

Thank you.

As a reference, this is from a bull moose at similar impact velocity from a lead core bullet at right under half the weight-


Frangible lead bullets can simply create more tissue damage at the same weight than any current mono.

Off the top of my head I've had two situations where a berger and a eld x failed deliver its energy into the goods...both nice bulls..both died so was able to see what happened ...

Can you please provide details- bullet, impact velocity, impact location and track, penetration depth, wound width, etc?

It would be cool to butcher an animal and have different guys explain what they think is going on as the bullet travels through an animal...because I think thats partially the reason for the discrepancy of good performance

You don’t have to “think” what happened. Google “Dr. Gary Robert’s terminal ballistics”, or “Martin Fackler terminal ballictics”. What and how bullets destroy tissue has been widely known and available since the early 90’s.

 

[WRO]

From what I’ve been reading, match bullets are for “long range target shooting” that have been marketed for “long range hunting”. Because of the nature of the bullet construction with such a thin jacket, why would anyone take the chance on only wounding the animal? I would think a Barnes, Partition, Aframe or Accubonds would be much better suited due to weight retention alone.

Once again you're reading shit written by people with 0 real life experience and taking it as gospel..

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[Elkangle]

You shot a moose with a 75 grain bullet ? I can dig up pics of lead bullets causing less damage also lol..I have read those studies i believe, have they been up dated with modern monos ?

I'm really not trying to upset people by saying hammers are effective and my preferences for a bullet atm..idl why this is a sensitive subject lol

 

[Formidilosus]

You shot a moose with a 75 grain bullet ? I can dig up pics of lead bullets causing less damage also lol..I have read those studies i believe, have they been up dated with modern monos ?

I'm really not trying to upset people by saying hammers are effective and my preferences for a bullet atm..idl why this is a sensitive subject lol

No, I didn’t shoot it- I was looking through the Binos.

What studies are you talking about? What I suggested to google aren’t “studies”. Wounding mechanisms don’t change based on a bullets composition- though monos, including every one that has mentioned so far have been tested.

You’re not upsetting anyone. If you haven’t read the thread, you should as you are missing the discussion.

 

[wyosam]

Thank you.

As a reference, this is from a bull moose at similar impact velocity from a lead core bullet at right under half the weight-
View attachment 234704

Frangible lead bullets can simply create more tissue damage at the same weight than any current mono.





Can you please provide details- bullet, impact velocity, impact location and track, penetration depth, wound width, etc?




You don’t have to “think” what happened. Google “Dr. Gary Robert’s terminal ballistics”, or “Martin Fackler terminal ballictics”. What and how bullets destroy tissue has been widely known and available since the early 90’s.

Aren’t both of the bullets he mentioned being billed as the best thing since sliced bread for killing elk? Other than the shot being placed on a path to the vital zone, and being within some reasonable distance to have adequate energy and velocity be all that matters? Sounds like a lot of qualifiers for getting to the vitals.


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[Elkangle]

No, I didn’t shoot it- I was looking through the Binos.

What studies are you talking about? What I suggested to google aren’t “studies”. Wounding mechanisms don’t change based on a bullets composition- though monos, including every one that has mentioned so far have been tested.

You’re not upsetting anyone. If you haven’t read the thread, you should as you are missing the discussion.

Let me read up those names you provided and get back to you

Im Pretty much done rifle hunting this year but I'm headed to Argentina when ever it opens...maybe il see if we can't do a direct berger/ hammer comparison with photos

My brother loves bergers

 

[S.Clancy]

This year because I didn't draw any limited entry elk tags (love hunting rut crazed big bulls) I was helping an outfitter friend with his hunters. The first evening we had a hunter who was new to elk hunting in an area we had seen elk that morning. As we watched a sage clearing I continued quietly coaching the hunter that elk live in the bottom third of their body and try to place bullet close behind the front leg. About an hour before sundown a good bull stepped out closer than we were expecting at 160yds. The hunter was shooting off of sticks and had taken time to get comfortable. The hunter asked us if this was a good bull and we said to shoot when we stop it. I cow called and the bull locked up quartering slightly toward us.
At the shot the bull started moving to our left stumbling. After it went about 30 yds I stopped it with a cow call, the hunter shot again missing high left. The elk then turned back and was hit with the 3rd shot which sounded like a gut shot and the fourth shot was a miss. He then made it back into the quakies and the thick brush. I started having a crappy feeling and after 2 days we gave up the search. The hunter was using a .270 with 140 grain mono bullets.
The second troubling experience happened to an experienced hunter in camp who is also a great guide. After 17 years he drew a great tag and spent the summer patterning an incredible bull. On day 5 the bull finally presented a shot at a bit over 400 yds. At the shot the bull fell, got up, fell, got up into the brush and you guessed it was never seen again. My friend passed on numerous other bulls to concentrate on finding the wounded bull. At seasons end all he had was tag soup. The rifle he used was a .270. The guy handloads and is a good shot.
These 2 experiences caused me to reflect on my years of shooting elk and what conclusions I could draw to prevent problems again. Understand these are personal opinions I plan to follow and I realize many people will have different opinions, not looking for an argument. First- I will be adamant to hunters about where to hit elk, bottom third behind front leg on a broadside. Second- I will personally hunt with nothing smaller than my 7mm magnum with 160 grain or heavier lead bullets. After this year I may try 175 gr Nosler partitions. Third- I will limit my self to no shot longer than 400 yds and then only if I can shoot prone over a pack. The best bull I have ever shot at was facing me at 220 yds. I was sitting but wasn't using a rest. He fell at the shot and when I had worked my way over to him through the brush he was gone. My rifle was a 270 with a mono copper bullet. I am the one that pulled the trigger and the lost bull was my fault. It had taken 12 yrs to draw that tag.
This post is a little long but I hope it might help some new hunters. I realize other hunters have different ideas, do what's right for you.

I've killed over a dozen elk with the .270 and have witnessed at least 30 others killed with that caliber at ranges from 20 yards to 390 yards. It is an extremely capable caliber. From what I've seen, people go to higher calibers because they cannot shoot and want an elk hit "wherever" to go down regardless. Operator error.

 

[bummer7580]

I've killed over a dozen elk with the .270 and have witnessed at least 30 others killed with that caliber at ranges from 20 yards to 390 yards. It is an extremely capable caliber. From what I've seen, people go to higher calibers because they cannot shoot and want an elk hit "wherever" to go down regardless. Operator error.

S.Clancy, I see you replied to my post so I thought I could reply to yours. Seems like you feel anyone who shoots a rifle larger than a .270 does so because "they cannot shoot and want an elk hit wherever to go down". You are painting many of us with a broad brush as far as ability. Some of us shoot a helluva lot with rifles larger than .270 for enjoyment and I'm not sure I"d be questioning peoples skill. Some of us have also killed killed a shitpot full of big bulls. I only hunt big bull elk and have shot them with 4 calibers(300WSM, 30.06, 7MM, and .270). The 7MM with heavier lead bullets seemed to perform best for me so I favor it. Your experience has said the .270 works for you and I won't criticize your choice of caliber.

 

[S.Clancy]

S.Clancy, I see you replied to my post so I thought I could reply to yours. Seems like you feel anyone who shoots a rifle larger than a .270 does so because "they cannot shoot and want an elk hit wherever to go down". You are painting many of us with a broad brush as far as ability. Some of us shoot a helluva lot with rifles larger than .270 for enjoyment and I'm not sure I"d be questioning peoples skill. Some of us have also killed killed a shitpot full of big bulls. I only hunt big bull elk and have shot them with 4 calibers(300WSM, 30.06, 7MM, and .270). The 7MM with heavier lead bullets seemed to perform best for me so I favor it. Your experience has said the .270 works for you and I won't criticize your choice of caliber.

I'm not saying don't shoot a larger caliber, I'm saying do it for the right reasons, like you described. Don't do it because you can't reliably hit the vitals, which I have seen.

 

[bummer7580]

I'm not saying don't shoot a larger caliber, I'm saying do it for the right reasons, like you described. Don't do it because you can't reliably hit the vitals, which I have seen.

We're good. I sincerely hope you and friends continue with the luck of finding good bulls.

 

[wyosam]

I don’t care what people shoot, I’d just like for people to take shots they are capable of, and not rush them. Nothing better than “my whatever rifle shoots 1/2 minute all day long”, then a 400 yard broadside shot on an elk turns into a clean miss prone off a pack. That’s a long damn ways for .5 to grow. Disturbing thing to watch- when you’re with someone who is about to take a shot on game, instead of watching the animal, watch the muzzle. I can’t believe some of the times I’ve heard the shot break. Cross hair is making a 3-4 foot wiggly circle in the general vicinity of the animal, and the answer is to send it?


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[Sled]

since the topic came up, i'm one of the people that switched to monos after seeing that xray with fragments all over it. i have since started to mix back in some bergers with my barnes but am cautious of leg shots with frangible projectiles. my preferred target is the lower third of the lungs and tight to the crease. i've taken animals with nosler BT's, AB's, Partitions/ Barnes TTsx,Tsx,Lrx/ Berger hunters, hybrids/ Rem Corelokt and a handful of other less notable rounds. i haven't found any to under perform but some rounds to be better than others with regard to animal type, shot placement and distance. i'm currently shooting Eagle Eye ammo w/ berger classic hunters in my light weight suppressed rig. my plan is to avoid bone and stay within 500 yards. i'm still cautious of lead and trim appropriately but the reality is, i breath more lead from artillery and explosives use in 6 months that i will probably eat in a lifetime of hunting.

form, are there any at home blood tests for lead?

 

[Smtn10pt]

I have to add in my experience with Barnes TTSX to this discussion. I'm shooting the 180 grainers out of my 300 RUM. I've taken a WT doe, AK moose, and MT elk with these bullets. After my recent elk kill I think I am going to use the remaining ones I have up on deer and start the search for a better big game bullet on my next batch of reloads. Attached are the pics of bullets I recovered from my 2020 bull. I also recovered a bullet from my moose that looks exactly like the one on the right in my pictures.

 

[CAElkhunter]

I too have a 300RUM and have shot the 180 Barnes and 180 Nosler partition. I have found that the Nosler Partition knocks the crap out of elk and puts them down whereas the Barnes tends to punch a 30 cal hole in them that ends up killing the elk but they don't go down right away. I shot 2 bulls with the Barnes, found them but immediately went back to the Nosler. The Barnes are a great bullet, very accurate and fly well.
I just prefer the Partition as the 15 Bulls I have put down with them don't....that is just my field experience with the rounds and not technical ballistic data

 

[BDRam16]

I haven’t read through 13 pages so it’s quite possible someone already mentioned this. In my experience with plenty of people both in the field and online, I think that a lot of less experienced hunters don’t understand animal anatomy enough. They hear “behind the front shoulder” and when you ask them to point to that spot on the animal they almost always point to back of the lungs if not liver. People do not realize how deer/elk legs and shoulders work. They think the shoulder blade is straight up the front leg and it isn’t. A perfectly broadside shot for me is straight up the front leg, and a couple inches under middle of the body horizontally.

If you look at this ever so slightly quartered to shot, a bullet entering a few inches behind the leg which is what many people consider “perfect”, you might not even hit back of the on side lung, and you’ll definitely miss the back side lung. Probably be a fatal liver shot but the blood trail will be tough. Just my $.02

 

[Huntinaz]

^^^ yep @BDRam16 I believe this phenomenon of many hunters having a very loose understanding of anatomy and physiology is a big contributor to lost animals as well. Many people don’t Really understand the anatomy and some still won’t know what they’re looking at even with that picture. How often do you read or hear “I blew up the heart and lungs both with my behind the leg shot”??



Regarding monos, they are excellent at what they do. Most people don’t understand what that is. There are a lot of ways to kill an elk and different bullets perform in different ways and if you understand your bullet design and an animal's anatomy you are in a good position to pick your shots and succeed

 

[bigbuckhunter88]

I agree the "behind the shoulder" term for many is confusing. Not enough people have broken down or paid attention when doing so to know where to aim. Many of the "bad shots" are just poor aiming points imo.

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[wyosam]

I agree the "behind the shoulder" term for many is confusing. Not enough people have broken down or paid attention when doing so to know where to aim. Many of the "bad shots" are just poor aiming points imo.

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Yeah, it seems to be anywhere from the front leg to the the rectum in a lot of cases. I suspect a lot of people just get excited and hold center mass, and hope the wobble or the trigger jerk will send it to the vitals.


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[robby denning]

Yeah, it seems to be anywhere from the front leg to the the rectum in a lot of cases. I suspect a lot of people just get excited and hold center mass, and hope the wobble or the trigger jerk will send it to the vitals.


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I’m afraid you could be right! Ha ha Ha ha ha.


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