2 lost elk and conclusions.

[WRO]

I agree with shot placement behind shoulder/leg. I saw some threads earlier about “shooting through the shoulder/blade”. That seems like utter nonsense.

They don't tend to go very far with a broken shoulder..

Most have been DRT or close in my experience.

 

[roosiebull]

I’ll mirror this. I killed my first bull this year. Shot him with 180 grain accubond out of a 30-06 fieldcraft. Shot was 225 yards, and I hit him right behind the shoulder. He turned and ran like I never touched him. I shot him 3 times after that, 2 of which were in a 3-4” circle right behind the opposite shoulder. The last one through the front shoulder and he still didn’t go down immediately after that. All shots were under 350 yards. I was really surprised how tough they are and how much they can take and keep going. I know the 30-06 is plenty of rifle and would take it again but given the chance i would choose a 300 wm or bigger. I almost took my 270 fieldcraft and was really glad I didn’t. I know many elk have been taken with 270 and even 6.5 but when I go I’ll be toting a 30 caliber for sure.


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had you taken your 270, your results would have likely mirrored the one's you got... had you brought a 300WM, again, likely exact same results.

bullet type from any of the cartridges could have changed the elk's reaction, but the same bullet in a 300wm just wouldn't.... there are tons of similar accounts with bigger cartridges with elk. shoot their lungs out with any reasonable cartridge, they aren't going too far, but they may not die instantly, that's just the nature of elk hunting, everything on them is big, so they may take an extra few seconds to tip over.

i think that's why some swear by those more fragile bullets like bergers, or ELD-X, they are like expandable broadheads, when they work right, it can be damn impressive.... when they don't, you'll see threads like "i'm done with X bullets!"

i like tough bullets, like mono, bonded, partitions, etc... i am aware it may not be a DRT on a broadside shot, but they will die plenty fast, and if your shot counts on penetration, the bullet will perform within reason.

super impressive reactions from game, when they fall faster than gravity, often will also be a mess when you start cutting up the critter, whether it's massive bloodshot of a bunch of demolished meat and bone fragments.... i would rather have less mess and have the animal stay on it's feet an extra 5 seconds.

there is a lot more to bullet performance than cartridge alone, like bullet construction and where the shot lands.... having an elk not react to good shots behind the front shoulder is far from a bad thing, and it doesn't mean you lack sufficient energy. i have seen a wide range of reactions to shots from a wide range of bullets and cartridges, that's just real life.

when i was up working in AK, i had a girlfriend there, her dad and his buddies hunted afognak for elk almost every year, and one of the years he shot a big 7x7 (gigantic bodied bull, they weighed it but it sounds like a fake number for an elk so i'll leave that out) and he was shooting a 300wm and shot that bull 6 times, 5 were in the lungs... he made 3 good shots, reloaded, shot 3 more times, and it finally fell as he was reloading again... not enough gun?

elk just don't fall over instantly if their CNS isn't shocked, just the nature of the beast. sounds like you had way enough HP to get the job done, but it helps to have realistic expectations

 

[MThuntr]

My experience is that the average hunter isn't spending enough time behind the trigger in varying situations and is ill prepared for shots beyond 100 yards with their equipment. Even veteran hunters. Also people are rushing shots they have no right taking.

EXAMPLE: I have a friend that knew we drew antelope tags back in July. He also knew that we had permission to hunt a ranch for deer that required non-lead bullets. He waited until late August to ask about load development...he had 100 Barnes bullets and maybe 75 pieces of mixed brass of unknown origin. No powder, no primers. After painstaking load development with new brass and my powder, he waits until 1 week before antelope season to shoot again. He was messing with his scope the whole internals for his shitty Burris scope fall apart. Once we get a replacement mounted and leveled. He shots 3 at 200...all are an inch high but group great off lead sled. He thinks he's good to 400 but I saw him miss 3 slam dunk shots on antelope at 200 yards.

Meanwhile I burned hundreds of dollars in bullets, unicorn tears (RL26) and pixie poppers (Fed 215M) this year confirming shots at random distances using sticks, bipods, off my pack and I'm still not sure I'm happy with my shooting.

 

[amassi]

Too much time laying on a bench
Not enough real shooting situations and positions

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[Indian Summer]

Too much time laying on a bench
Not enough real shooting situations and positions

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Or quite often adequate time at the bench and thinking they will be just as accurate off of a bipod on the side of a hill with adrenaline flowing. I can “kill” targets every time at 800 yards on the bench and when I walk away I feel like I’m good to 600 in the field as long as I have the time.

 

[bummer7580]

This year because I didn't draw any limited entry elk tags (love hunting rut crazed big bulls) I was helping an outfitter friend with his hunters. The first evening we had a hunter who was new to elk hunting in an area we had seen elk that morning. As we watched a sage clearing I continued quietly coaching the hunter that elk live in the bottom third of their body and try to place bullet close behind the front leg. About an hour before sundown a good bull stepped out closer than we were expecting at 160yds. The hunter was shooting off of sticks and had taken time to get comfortable. The hunter asked us if this was a good bull and we said to shoot when we stop it. I cow called and the bull locked up quartering slightly toward us.
At the shot the bull started moving to our left stumbling. After it went about 30 yds I stopped it with a cow call, the hunter shot again missing high left. The elk then turned back and was hit with the 3rd shot which sounded like a gut shot and the fourth shot was a miss. He then made it back into the quakies and the thick brush. I started having a crappy feeling and after 2 days we gave up the search. The hunter was using a .270 with 140 grain mono bullets.
The second troubling experience happened to an experienced hunter in camp who is also a great guide. After 17 years he drew a great tag and spent the summer patterning an incredible bull. On day 5 the bull finally presented a shot at a bit over 400 yds. At the shot the bull fell, got up, fell, got up into the brush and you guessed it was never seen again. My friend passed on numerous other bulls to concentrate on finding the wounded bull. At seasons end all he had was tag soup. The rifle he used was a .270. The guy handloads and is a good shot.
These 2 experiences caused me to reflect on my years of shooting elk and what conclusions I could draw to prevent problems again. Understand these are personal opinions I plan to follow and I realize many people will have different opinions, not looking for an argument. First- I will be adamant to hunters about where to hit elk, bottom third behind front leg on a broadside. Second- I will personally hunt with nothing smaller than my 7mm magnum with 160 grain or heavier lead bullets. After this year I may try 175 gr Nosler partitions. Third- I will limit my self to no shot longer than 400 yds and then only if I can shoot prone over a pack. The best bull I have ever shot at was facing me at 220 yds. I was sitting but wasn't using a rest. He fell at the shot and when I had worked my way over to him through the brush he was gone. My rifle was a 270 with a mono copper bullet. I am the one that pulled the trigger and the lost bull was my fault. It had taken 12 yrs to draw that tag.
This post is a little long but I hope it might help some new hunters. I realize other hunters have different ideas, do what's right for you.

Good news, bull #2 above survived his wound. Another outfitter sent us a picture of him taken 3 days ago. He said the bull was feeding and showed no limp or being humped up. How and where on his body he was wounded I have no clue. We could start another post speculating what happened. If the outfitter puts him on the ground I'll try to get permission to post pictures. He's an incredible bull.

 

[Next Ridge]

They don't tend to go very far with a broken shoulder..

Most have been DRT or close in my experience.

The goal of any shot regardless of weapon is to cause either 1) massive damage to vital organs or 2) massive life threatening bleeding. There are many many ways to get at vital organs and bloodstreams going through soft tissue or less guarded areas of an animal. Purposely shooting through bone only introduces risk, complications and possibility for ballistic uncertainty. If the shot isn’t there don’t take it. I haven’t met any ethical hunter that recommends breaking a shoulder to limit movement as an option.

 

[WRO]

The goal of any shot regardless of weapon is to cause either 1) massive damage to vital organs or 2) massive life threatening bleeding. There are many many ways to get at vital organs and bloodstreams going through soft tissue or less guarded areas of an animal. Purposely shooting through bone only introduces risk, complications and possibility for ballistic uncertainty. If the shot isn’t there don’t take it. I haven’t met any ethical hunter that recommends breaking a shoulder to limit movement as an option.

How many elk have you been a part of killing?

You seem to have the opinion of a guy with a lot of book reading and not much real life experience.

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[AaronMColeman]

The goal of any shot regardless of weapon is to cause either 1) massive damage to vital organs or 2) massive life threatening bleeding. There are many many ways to get at vital organs and bloodstreams going through soft tissue or less guarded areas of an animal. Purposely shooting through bone only introduces risk, complications and possibility for ballistic uncertainty. If the shot isn’t there don’t take it. I haven’t met any ethical hunter that recommends breaking a shoulder to limit movement as an option.

Plus it's a waste of good meat! I try really hard to maximize meat in the freezer. I blew out a shoulder this year and I'm pretty bummed about it.

 

[Jardo]

i’ve killed a dozen spikes with a 270 hand load. I am comfortable with using a 270on a spike only hunt. for a mature bull, i think 270 is a bit small. there’s a big difference 350 lb spike to a 600 Lb mature bull.

i use my 280 hand loads pushing near 7mm rem mag velocity for mature bulls.

i better knock on some wood but so far, i have never lost an elk. All elk have been drt using these calibers with good broadside shots. taking an extreme angle shot on an elk with an elephant gun is a bad idea.

there’s. had somewhere on here advocating for using 223 on deer with match bullets... and people think a 270 is too small for elk...


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[squirrel]

You don't learn anything from animals that get away. (except maybe don't do that again) You learn from analyzing dead animals and comparing what you thought should have happened to what actually happened. The most common lesson learned... get closer, seems to be a hard lesson for some to learn though.

 

[Str8shooter]

Good news, bull #2 above survived his wound. Another outfitter sent us a picture of him taken 3 days ago. He said the bull was feeding and showed no limp or being humped up. How and where on his body he was wounded I have no clue. We could start another post speculating what happened. If the outfitter puts him on the ground I'll try to get permission to post pictures. He's an incredible bull.

So surely this lends creedence to the consistent point of this forum...shot placement was the issue...not caliber.

 

[CMF]

It doesn't say you put a dog on the track before giving up, so I'm assuming you didn't? I know that it's not as big of thing out west, but I would never call a search off with a confirmed or probable hit without putting a dog on it. They are 100x better trackers than we are.

I know in some states they may not be legal.

In Mississippi we have facebook groups dedicated to matching blood trackers with hunters and makes it easy to get in touch with someone.
One group even post there stats, as of mid Jan-19, they're yearly total was 698 tracks, 469 recoveries (67%). Imagine how many of those deer would not have been recovered without a dog, or imagine how many elk would be recovered if a dog were put on the track.

If we're talking calibers and such, I hunt whitetail with a .45-70 and 325 grain bullet, they usually don't take another step.

 

[Elkangle]

Is it wrong to want some folks to post credentials on there opinion?? I'm sure some on here have immense amounts of experience which would be awesome to tap into...I have my own views on this and its all based off my own experience and butchering 1000s of game animals..this isn't to brag nor say someones view with less experiences isn't important

*Why shoot the smallest gun possible
*perfect shots are a blessing
*if recoil is a problem then solve it
*elk are 2-3x the size of deer
*you can go into the woods to kill elk or you can go into the woods to kill elk under certain circumstances
*tracking animals sucks
*shit freaking happens
*3 quarters are better then no quarters...always shoot again

Just some thoughts

 

[WRO]

Is it wrong to want some folks to post credentials on there opinion?? I'm sure some on here have immense amounts of experience which would be awesome to tap into...I have my own views on this and its all based off my own experience and butching 1000s of game animals..this isn't to brag nor say someone with less experiences isn't important

*Why shoot the smallest gun possible
*perfect shots are a blessing
*if recoil is a problem then solve it
*elk are 2-3x the size of deer
*you can go into the woods to kill elk or you can go into the woods to kill elk under certain circumstances
*tracking animals sucks
*shit freaking happens
*3 quarters are better then no quarters...always shoot again

Just some thoughts

I've killed 2 elk a year in average the last 10 years. I'm blessed to get the opportunity to be a part of another 7 or 8 on average yearly. A lot of cows, but a couple bulls a year as well. About 30/70 archery rifle split.

I'm guessing I'm getting close to triple digits in killing and watching them get killed if you go back the 20+ years I've been hunting, helping, and guiding.

A well placed bullet usually is all it takes, the problem is they never run to a great spot and the 5lbs of burger meat you save by not breaking them down, a lot of time is lost on follow up shots.

I've seen them killed with most calibers between 243 to 340 Weatherby, shot placement is key.

One of the hardest bulls to die was shot 5 times in the bread basket with Barnes, bull never reacted like he was hurt until he went 150 yards into a shithole and died. (I don't like mono or hard bullets for well anything)

I've only seen 1 wounded elk go into a better place to die, they usually only go into worse spots.



2 shoulder shots, first one was little forward, but he was done. Any direction he would've run would've been significantly worse.

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[mcseal2]

I've shot 3 elk so I'm no expert. Where I hunted them most shots were going to be inside 50 yards in the clearing I was in, or across the canyon at 350 yards plus. There were a lot of side canyons that would be the 350-450 yard shots, the main canyon was wider.

The first bull fell at 400 yards to a 270 with a 150gr Partition. One shot broadside through the lungs and it exited, he fell 20 yards later.

I shot my second with a 7mm Rem Mag custom rifle. I did not have a ton of time before that hunt to work up a handload so I tried 4 brands of factory ammo. The rifle picked the plain old 175gr CoreLokt Remington as it's favorite so I bought 240 of them. A couple hundred to practice with and 40 to take hunting. I got comfortable with the rifle and fine tuned the Leupold scope with the B&C reticle it had. That fall I met a friend in Wyoming and used the rifle to take a nice antelope at 300 yards. I left the gun with him and flew up to meet him again later that fall. That trip I got a nice 6x6 bull with 2 shots broadside at 478 yards through the lungs. I recovered one bullet and it retained about 60% and mushroomed well. Later I got a good handload with 160gr Accubonds.

My third and largest bull fell to a 270 win and 140gr Accubonds. I had sold the 7mm Rem Mag for a lighter rifle, and chose the 270 to keep recoil down. I found a nice 338" 6x6 across a side canyon. Conditions were near ideal and I had time to really get a good rest. I shot that bull twice at 614 yards broadside. The first shot was right behind the shoulder, the second through the neck as he wobbled backward and it was my only opening. He never went 20 yards and both exited.

I have ended up shooting further at elk on average than any other game animal. I don't look for long shots but practice to be capable of them. I don't think I've shot anything else past 400 yards except coyotes and maybe one whitetail doe. I think the common factor on my bulls is that they were hit well and broadside when they were shot. I have been in on some hunts with other guys where the end result was not that clean and easy. They were not hit as well initially and ended up soaking up a lot of lead before going down. One bull had 9 160gr 7mm Accubonds in him before he dropped. He was headed into a canyon the local guy we were with did NOT want him disappearing into. A lot of those bullets were recovered and all weighed 60-70% of their initial weight.

My next elk hunt I'll be packing a custom 300 win mag I had built a few years back by Rifles Inc. The design combines what I'd learned I like with the builders extensive knowledge. It's a lightweight 70 with a slightly heavier fluted barrel for a little more weight and stability up front. The gun shoots Nosler factory 180gr E tip ammo at 2900fps consistently into 3/4" groups. I have a handload it shoot slightly better, but the buddy I go on all my out of state hunts with shoots that factory ammo in his 300 win mag. I figure having a common load between us is more important than 1/4" of accuracy. I had the gun built in 2015 or 16, and it's taken a couple muleys, several whitetail, a moose and a caribou since. The only bullet I've recovered weighted 179 of it's initial 180 grains. None of the animals have gone far but all the shots have been well placed. I think it will be a really good elk rifle and more likely to have exit wounds than the other's I've used if follow up shots at tougher angles are necessary.

Not sure if this is helpful to anyone, but it's what worked for me in real life.

 

[wyosam]

Elk are big and tough, but they aren’t magic. Let the air or the blood out, and they will be dying in the very near future. In my observation, most elk that run much when hit well, were either hit poorly first, or were otherwise amped up and running on adrenaline. I’ve watched a lot of elk die, many to lighter calibers, and relaxed elk that are hit well with the first shot very rarely go far. Hit them well with good bullets at a velocity those bullets will function as designed at. It’s not rocket science. I went through a 300wm phase, and never saw any evidence of “insurance” for a marginal shot. Elk (or anything else) hit poorly, still meant extensive tracking. When hit well, They didn’t die any different than they have with rifles that are much more pleasant to shoot. A big part of the problem with rounds like the 6.5cm, 270 and others on the light end of the spectrum is that 1- people don’t understand range limitations that exist with anything. And 2- even with all the fantastic hunting bullets we have available, a lot of people insist on shooting bullets at elk that aren’t up to the task. There are some great lead bullets out there, if that is your thing, yet people want to shoot a match bullet at elk. It makes no sense. If you’re into copper, there are bullets like the Hammers that shoot like match bullets and are absolutely devastating on game. Headstamps don’t kill elk, well placed quality bullets do.


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[Indian Summer]

Is it wrong to want some folks to post credentials on there opinion?? I'm sure some on here have immense amounts of experience which would be awesome to tap into...I have my own views on this and its all based off my own experience and butching 1000s of game animals..this isn't to brag nor say someone with less experiences isn't important

*Why shoot the smallest gun possible
*perfect shots are a blessing
*if recoil is a problem then solve it
*elk are 2-3x the size of deer
*you can go into the woods to kill elk or you can go into the woods to kill elk under certain circumstances
*tracking animals sucks
*shit freaking happens
*3 quarters are better then no quarters...always shoot again

Just some thoughts

This year I killed my 22nd elk in a row. I outfitted for 12 years in Montana where you get a month of bow hunting and 5 weeks of gun so I’ve been there for my share of kills. In my opinion that is a damn good post Elkangle!

 

[roosiebull]

Elk are big and tough, but they aren’t magic. Let the air or the blood out, and they will be dying in the very near future. In my observation, most elk that run much when hit well, were either hit poorly first, or were otherwise amped up and running on adrenaline. I’ve watched a lot of elk die, many to lighter calibers, and relaxed elk that are hit well with the first shot very rarely go far. Hit them well with good bullets at a velocity those bullets will function as designed at. It’s not rocket science. I went through a 300wm phase, and never saw any evidence of “insurance” for a marginal shot. Elk (or anything else) hit poorly, still meant extensive tracking. When hit well, They didn’t die any different than they have with rifles that are much more pleasant to shoot. A big part of the problem with rounds like the 6.5cm, 270 and others on the light end of the spectrum is that 1- people don’t understand range limitations that exist with anything. And 2- even with all the fantastic hunting bullets we have available, a lot of people insist on shooting bullets at elk that aren’t up to the task. There are some great lead bullets out there, if that is your thing, yet people want to shoot a match bullet at elk. It makes no sense. If you’re into copper, there are bullets like the Hammers that shoot like match bullets and are absolutely devastating on game. Headstamps don’t kill elk, well placed quality bullets do.


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good points... i have only seen a couple elk "crumple" but i have been with a lot of inexperienced hunters and seen several first elk killed, so i try to keep it simple and tell them to shoot them behind the shoulder.... those elk regardless of cartridge don't just die instantly, or dump like a big magnum with a high shoulder shot... though that shot is favored by some, it should be left to those with adequate HP and know exactly where they are supposed to hit them.

that being said, i cannot recall any elk shot well with any bullet/cartridge going far after being shot well.... they almost always stand around dazed and offer more target practice... the ones that do run seem to tip over pretty quick.... the ones that don't react and just stand there take a few seconds.... if someone is so inclined, a follow up neck shot will anchor them.... depends on the hunter... an experienced composed hunter can dump that elk at any reasonable range.

last year i watched 3 rifle bulls die, 2 with a creed and one with a 7-08... none were DRT but none went 20 yds from initial impact. i think your cartridge of choice is directly related to the limitations you are willing to accept.... in a couple weeks when i'm out with my wife who's packing a 6.5cm, i will let her take shots that i would take with my bow.... has to be a stationary broadside or quartering away bull.... that's ok, that cartridge has limitations, but so does my wife, so it works out.

a more experienced hunter/shooter will likely be able to handle a bigger cartridge, and will have the experience to open up shot opportunities... both of those come with time and experience.... things seem to have a way to work themselves out in real life.

the ones that have problems are those guys who hunt elk every year, but invest no time pre season in the woods or at the range, and may or may not have a big magnum, and will shoot at any legal elk they can get in their scope.... those are the people that seem to lose elk, and those are the same people that accidentally shoot cows.

the basic theme to elk hunting is know your weapon, know yourself, and know the limitations of both and don't exceed them. where i live and hunt, a brake is not a good option for my wife to get in a bigger gun, we may be in the trees watching elk filter by in front of us, i may need to communicate with her, so ear protection while hunting isn't practical.... we may also be setting up for a shot in a clear cut where it may be more practical, but with her experience level, i need to have constant communication with her the whole time, and ear protection would complicate that to a point it's not worth it to me.... i know if she places that 140gr accubond well, i have a long day of packing meat ahead of me.... may not be an impressive DRT, but the elk will be dying quick.

to me, it is weird that some deem a 6.5 or 7-08 inadequate for elk, but an arrow isn't. i believe in the biggest cartridge you can handle without recoil having any effect on your shooting or willingness to shoot often.... more than half of the people i watch shoot have a problem flinching.... pretty substantial.... my wife isn't one of them yet, and i want to keep it that way.

i was watching her when she shot her buck this year, and she executed the shot like a boss.... gradually increased pressure on the trigger until the rifle went off.... i was impressed, i have to be very cognitive to do that well

 

[WRO]

There are some great lead bullets out there, if that is your thing, yet people want to shoot a match bullet at elk. It makes no sense.

My freezer disagrees with your assessment of match bullets.