1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Sponge]

I greatly prefer having a grip safety done right if it is a non game pistol.

would this be grip safety disengagement at 50% travel for carry/field guns?

 

[Formidilosus]

To address reliability:

Yes, there are a bunch- most 1911’s that you will see at ranges that malfunction. The reasons why are very simple.

#1- most are 45’s and shooters- especially the generation most likely to have 45 auto 1911’s, are absolute cheapskates and use the cheapest, junkiest ammo they can get. This includes reloads. Reloaded pistol ammo is about the hardest thing to get reliable, and 45 ammo is by far the most likely reloaded ammo for the casual person. 9mm is cheap enough that most just go and buy Winchester white box or Blazer Brass- both of which are far better than reloads.

#2- there are 30 different make and models of magazines- most of cheap junk.

#3- the extractor does not to be adjusted correctly, and often it is not from the factory.

#4- recoil and nainssprings too light.

#5- 1911 and 2011’s need to be lubed, they do not work well when dry.




If you take any decent 1911 in 45 auto (Springfield, Colt, Tisas, etc), adjust the extractor, put an 18.5lb recoil spring and 23lb mainspring in it, use Tripp Cobra, Ed Brown, or Wilson ETM mags; use quality 45 auto factory ammo, and lube it- I expect 8,000-10,000 trouble free rounds from the pistol. At that point the extractor should be bearing the end of its life and a Wilson BP for to it, as well small MIM parts might start to go, and you want to replace the springs every 4,000 to 5,000 rounds.

For 9mm the same applies, however it’s a recoil spring on the heavy side and use hot/the hottest 9mm ammo you can with McGar 10 round plastic follower mags. Cobra mags, and Ed Browns are ok too. The extractor doesn’t really wear out in 9mm’s, and small parts breakage is way less. Spring replacement is probably a good call every 10,000 to 15,000 rounds.


Now, a properly built 1911 45 with no MIM parts and a couple spare extractors will go 40,000 to 50,000 rounds without issues, and at that point needs to be looked at for a rebuild. A 9mm version of same, I’d functionally a Glock. 9mm just doesn’t wear out 1911’s/2011’s.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m tracking now.

Unfortunately for me and anatomy, that would mean either shooting a 2011 with my thumb under the safety (don’t want to do), taping the grip safety, or not shooting a 2011. I’ve already swapped in the shortest trigger reach I can on that gun. At least it’s in a safariland level ALS.

Why is that?

 

[Formidilosus]

would this be grip safety disengagement at 50% travel for carry/field guns?

No. Immediate disengagement- as in the very first movement at all of the GS, it disengages. Think .01” movement.

 

[rbutcher1234]

Why is that?

The grip circumference is large enough that a 90 degree trigger press while riding the safety on a 2011 causes the top web of my hand to not put enough pressure where the grip safety disengages. It seems to be an interplay between the angle a disengaged safety holds my thumb, the location the grip safety disengages, and the size of my hand.

If the grip safety on my staccato disengaged with pressure closer to the top of the beaver tail, this wouldn’t be an issue. It disengages lower down. So my grip (right handed in this case) puts pressure along the right side of the gun, and the web of my hand is putting pressure into the beaver tail grip junction. The angle of keeping my right thumb on the safety causes the web of my hand to not put enough pressure where the grip safety is designed to disengage.

I have never experienced this issue on 1911s.

Changing the stock trigger to a short Atlas also allowed me to press the 2011 trigger with a lot more of my finger without compromising grip. Before that change, I would have to grip the gun differently than every other pistol.

It bears repeating that I have small hands, and a 2011 is the beefiest pistol I shoot.

 

[Formidilosus]

The grip circumference is large enough that a 90 degree trigger press while riding the safety on a 2011 causes the top web of my hand to not put enough pressure where the grip safety disengages. It seems to be an interplay between the angle a disengaged safety holds my thumb, the location the grip safety disengages, and the size of my hand.

If the grip safety on my staccato disengaged with pressure closer to the top of the beaver tail, this wouldn’t be an issue. It disengages lower down. So my grip (right handed in this case) puts pressure along the right side of the gun, and the web of my hand is putting pressure into the beaver tail grip junction. The angle of keeping my right thumb on the safety causes the web of my hand to not put enough pressure where the grip safety is designed to disengage.

I have never experienced this issue on 1911s.

Changing the stock trigger to a short Atlas also allowed me to press the 2011 trigger with a lot more of my finger without compromising grip. Before that change, I would have to grip the gun differently than every other pistol.

It bears repeating that I have small hands, and a 2011 is the beefiest pistol I shoot.

Ohhh. 2011. Yeah man, tape may be the only answer in that case. A Staccato C or CS should work for you too.

 

[RockAndSage]

ETA, coincidentally that post was exactly a year ago. ha

Lol, after season, but before tag draws...

 

[RockAndSage]

Have you seen many (or any) ADs, NDs, at a significantly different rate between action types?

It’s just that we’ve grown to except it. Now you’ve got people carrying and using pistols with sub 5lb, short or no take up triggers, with no safety- and then wondering why guns are going “bang” when they shouldn’t.

Not sure about the rates of NDs, but the nature of the NDs definitely seems different by action/trigger type. People seem to ND striker-fired guns more on the holstering, while SA guns (especially with really light triggers) seem to get ND'd early in the draw.

 

[rbutcher1234]

Ohhh. 2011. Yeah man, tape may be the only answer in that case. A Staccato C or CS should work for you too.

Admittedly it’s a big boy. X300v, Acro, safariland ALS. Just based on that, you can imagine what it is used for and in daylight/nighttime use.

Edit: let me contribute to this thread in a productive way. That specific staccato and several atlas magazines has over 8,000 124gr and 2,000 147 gr through it with zero malfunctions.

 

[Formidilosus]

Admittedly it’s a big boy. X300v, Acro, safariland ALS. Just based on that, you can imagine what it is used for and in daylight/nighttime use.

Oh yeah, I get that. Doesn’t bother me to tape the GS for that.

Edit: let me contribute to this thread in a productive way. That specific staccato and several atlas magazines has over 8,000 124gr and 2,000 147 gr through it with zero malfunctions.

Inconceivable!

 

[RockAndSage]

The grip circumference is large enough that a 90 degree trigger press while riding the safety on a 2011 causes the top web of my hand to not put enough pressure where the grip safety disengages. It seems to be an interplay between the angle a disengaged safety holds my thumb, the location the grip safety disengages, and the size of my hand.

If the grip safety on my staccato disengaged with pressure closer to the top of the beaver tail, this wouldn’t be an issue. It disengages lower down. So my grip (right handed in this case) puts pressure along the right side of the gun, and the web of my hand is putting pressure into the beaver tail grip junction. The angle of keeping my right thumb on the safety causes the web of my hand to not put enough pressure where the grip safety is designed to disengage.

I have never experienced this issue on 1911s.

Changing the stock trigger to a short Atlas also allowed me to press the 2011 trigger with a lot more of my finger without compromising grip. Before that change, I would have to grip the gun differently than every other pistol.

It bears repeating that I have small hands, and a 2011 is the beefiest pistol I shoot.

The hand size/geometry thing is something I don't hear talked about much...not sure if it's because instructors don't want to allow it to be an excuse or a mental issue for their students, or if it's just not well recognized or understood how to account for it. But over the years, I've noticed that a lot of the really top, high-performance handgunners I've personally seen seem to have abnormally large hands. It's definitely not a universal, but it's a pronounced pattern I've seen. And when I've heard them instruct, a lot of them don't seem to recognize how that's working for them in ways that are difficult to replicate for people with different hand geometries.

I first dealt with this back in the 1990s when switching from 1911s to a couple of Para Ordnance double-stack .45s. They were quite a bit blockier and thicker in circumference, and I had to re-work my grip a bit. I don't have small hands, but their geometry kinda results in similar problems with thick handguns. XL to XXL palms in thickness, but L finger length. When I touch thumb-tip to finger tips, I have less empty space than some girls I've dated, even though my hands are comparatively enormous to theirs. That empty space translates to reach and leverage when gripping a gun - or lack thereof. It's a really quick way to gauge what kind of guns and grips are going to be more or less work for someone.

A lot of the problems you're describing are ones I deal with too on 1911s/2011s - the biggest issues definitely relate to the thumb safety. Even with extra-short triggers, it's still extremely difficult to ride the thumb safety without also riding the slide and causing malfunctions. I've gone through about half a dozen different grip styles in how my support-hand's working the gun, and the best performing ones also result in the meat of the upper heel of my left hand, just below the thumb joint, activating the thumb safety slightly and interfering with the trigger internally. I don't want to give up that performance from the grip or reliability of riding the thumb safety, so I just picked up a couple of shielded thumb-safeties to fit onto a couple of my guns.

Regarding grip safeties, I had to open up the pathway in my Staccato C's for reasons similar to what you're describing, and similar to what Form's describing, though not as fully. But the trigger was contacting it enough during the press, that I needed to open it up more than a little, until I couldn't feel the grip safety moving at all during the shot process. But that C is a heck of a lot easier across the board to grip and shoot without a bunch of reworking of the hand positioning than any of the 2011s I've picked up.

One other 1911-esque gun that solves a lot of these problems, that might be worth considering for CCW, is the Dan Wesson DWX Compact. Excellent ergos, good beavertail but no grip safety, and super thin for a double-stack. The full-size DWX is blockier and chunkier, and wasn't interesting to me, but the Compact is one of the most slept-on, underrated CCW guns out there, for anyone in the SAO/1911/2011 space. I've got close to 20k rounds on mine, with the only reliability issue being a need to replace the extractor spring after about 10k rounds.

 

[solarshooter]

Dan Wesson DWX Compact.

I do love CZ 75 ergos. But this has kind of a weird trigger in there right? Not 1911, not CZ?

 

[RockAndSage]

I do love CZ 75 ergos. But this has kind of a weird trigger in there right? Not 1911, not CZ?

It actually uses 1911 internals - hammer, sear, disconnector, sear spring are all 1911. The trigger itself is physically unique, as the bow is wrapping around CZ75 mags, but it's functionally a 1911 trigger.

 

[solarshooter]

It actually uses 1911 internals - hammer, sear, disconnector, sear spring are all 1911. The trigger itself is physically unique, as the bow is wrapping around CZ75 mags, but it's functionally a 1911 trigger.

Oof, this conversation is taking an expensive turn...

@Formidilosus, any strong opinions on CZ vs 2011/1911 ergos? I'm assuming you're firmly in the camp that the single stack 1911 is the king for speed accuracy?

 

[Fatcamp]

I think we covered this before, but does a commander length 1911 in 9mm make things significantly harder in regards to performance and reliability?

 

[Formidilosus]

Oof, this conversation is taking an expensive turn...

@Formidilosus, any strong opinions on CZ vs 2011/1911 ergos? I'm assuming you're firmly in the camp that the single stack 1911 is the king for speed accuracy?

The 1911 grip is better. The DWX should have been a 1911 grip and CZ slide, instead of the other way around. However, as stated the DWX compact would be about third or fourth on my list. Proper 1911, Staccato C or CS, good 2011, and then maybe tied between Staccato HD and DWX.

 

[RockAndSage]

The 1911 grip is better. The DWX should have been a 1911 grip and CZ slide, instead of the other way around. However, as stated the DWX compact would be about third or fourth on my list. Proper 1911, Staccato C or CS, good 2011, and then maybe tied between Staccato HD and DWX.

To be fair, had I gotten the Staccato C first, I wouldn't have considered anything else. But there were just enough teething problems with the DWXc, combined with learning that the Staccato C was being discontinued, that it was an easy decision. To be equally fair though, I absolutely love that DWX Compact, as it still feels more at home in my hand than the C - but I also seem to be shooting the C just a hair better. It's like having two girlfriends - one has better pancakes, the other has better play, and I don't want to give up either.

 

[RockAndSage]

However, around 2011 or 2012 I changed how those I was around thought and trained with guns and I haven’t seen one with people I’m around since then.

^ Would love to hear more about this.

 

[TradLife406]

Ok I must be too stupid for a 1911...

Got my Kimber apart to swap the grip and trigger. Per the Red Dirt video I need to put the gun together minus the safeties to test and adjust pre travel...

But how the F is this spring supposed to sit so the hammer will half and full cock?

How is the tab on the far left supposed to sit? Everything says it's supposed to be on top. But apparently I need to sell these 1911 parts and go back to a Glock

 

[elkguide]

It's like having two girlfriends - one has better pancakes, the other has better play, and I don't want to give up either.

Would love to hear more about this! ^