1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[RockAndSage]

I think it’s the perfect analogy. Millions cannot drive a manual transmission but are driving anyway.

It’s not a non issue. Failure to disengage a safety is an extremely common failure. You can blame the user if you want. It’s still going to happen every single match.

Can you explain how this doesn't apply to the tens of millions of ARs people use?

 

[glock233]

Can you explain how this doesn't apply to the tens of millions of ARs people use?

It does apply. Mil spec ARs are not drop safe unless the safety is on, and even then only with the right primers. And on those tens of millions of ARs, users fail to disengage the safety and will do so more often under pressure.

Some rifles with a more modern design have firing pin blocks and similar safety mechanisms. The MCX and 416 are good examples. That’s an improvement.

 

[Formidilosus]

You are excellent with quote breakdowns. Me less so. I'll just number my points.

The global disconnect I think is a comparison between what is optimal for power users (you), vs. what I think is generally the best practice for the bottom 99%.

I don’t frame my statements or responses around what world class can do- I frame it around the audience it is intended for. The audience here is a thread about 1912’s and quite a few people learning to shoot 1911 relatively seriously.

1. The experience of power users that tune their guns is not a realistic look at what typical folks should be doing. It's like talking about ultra marathon running when a guy is asking how to jog better.

No. You keep saying “tune” a gun. Unless you mean adjust an extractor correctly- which this thread is full of people learning to do easily, no- you do not have to tune anything.

What does “tune” mean to you? It’s not an engine.

2. Certain 1911s can be tuned by changing out a few parts and avoiding light recoiling ammo. But some of them still choke and power users ditch them.

What does that even mean? Did you read this thread that you are posting this in? I literally bought the cheapest 1911 made ($399) and had it working correctly in sub 20 minutes with 4 different types of magazines.

What is your personal experience with 1911’s for serious use- say in the last decade? What guns, what mags, what ammo, and what did you do to them?

3. The mass shooting / terrorist point is something I'm sure you'd want back. What do you think the ratio of those events to other lawful uses of firearms? By far the most lawful civilian uses of firearms are nothing like what you described. Most are going to be around or in the home, people you know, at the workplace, or random assault type events. Civilian intervention in mass shooting or terrorist events is exceedingly rare compared to the field. We are probably talking about less than a hundred total in the United States this century?

Reread what I wrote.

4. You, of all people, know that the problem in a self-defense event will be adrenaline, lack of training, and what's going on between your ears. You also know that far less than 1% of regular gun carriers are even close to ready to perform in those scenarios.

And I care why? This thread isn’t about bumbling boobs. It’s a thread about what 1911’s and some best practices.

5. This brings up the safety point. You've shot more than me, though my experience with handguns is notable. If you've gone to similar events as me and interacted with the proficient-but-not-good public, I know you watch even experienced shooters sit there and fail to disengage their safeties with the slightest pressure applied to them. For those people---e.g. the vast majority---safeties are a point of failure.

No- safeties are an enabler. Far more people have ND’s than need to use their pistol martially- and safeties help greatly in not having ND’s. Again- the same bumbling boobs that miss a safety also miss reloads, draws, target transitions, movement, etc. The local soccer moms ability to drive has nothing to do with what vehicles can be driven best. I simply don’t care what bumbling boobs do- it takes a modicum of correct practice to make safety usage a 100% non factor. Literally 100% of the military is back to being issued a pistol with a safety and it is a non issue- and they suck.

6. 45 1911s are poor in general reliability but I agree with you they are better than 9mm 1911s.

You are repeating internet talking points, and apparently match shooting- while ignoring all the glocks that didn’t work at those same matches. Glocks at USPSA matches are no more reliable than 1911’s or 2011’s at matches- they all get stupid stuff done to them, and they all malfunction.

It is quite easy to make a modern 1911 way more reliable than is needed for carry.

But shooters are much slower with full power 45 1911s, when speed of multiple shots on target does matter.

Nope. 100% false. Not only false, but those matches you shot for a decade show that- Single Stack has a higher hit factor than Production. By quite a bit historically. Single Stack has a HHF than Carry Optics.

7. I shoot 1911s more accurately than a modern handgun too, so that point is conceded. Both in terms of accuracy potential of the platform and in terms of practical application. There is no debate. A proficient trained shooter firing a 1911 will achieve more and tighter hits at any distance, as far as that point goes. I don't think it's worth the costs.

These “costs” simply aren’t there if someone doesn’t want them to be.

This pistol has more than 20,000 rounds with one malfunction with 185gr semi-wadcutters


This pistol went over 30,000 rounds without a single malfunction before being redone in 9mm (the Glock behind it is at 70,000’ish rounds at that point)



This pistol is now nearing 12,000 rounds- it has not had a single malfunction:



These pistols were brand new here-



This is one of them at just over 40,000 rounds with zero cleaning ever, and zero malfunctions to this point.




Here it is after being thrown down range in gravel- somewhere around 30,000 rounds on it here-



Of those four Staccato P’s- three are over 30,000 rounds with zero (0) malfunctions; and one is over 60,000 rounds with 2x malfunctions due to not ever being cleaned and so much carbon built up under the extractor that it couldn’t flex back and grab the case rim (right at 43,000 rounds). Extractor was scraped and hasn’t malfunctioned since.



I’ve shot a Glock or two as well.

Iron sighted G17 with over 80,000 rounds on it in this picture, with the dot gun behind it at about 20,000 at this point-




The dot gun from above. G22 frame and 17 slide-



Both those Glocks got shot until they had to be retired: one at 86,000 +/- rounds, and one with just over 100,000 rounds. Hit the picture limit, but in that same time span 2x G19’s were shot until they had to be replaced one at 120,000+/- and the other at just over 100,000. A G22 as well- though it doesn’t take much (thankfully) to wear one out. Multiple Berettas and Sig 226/228’s as well. Then of course Sig M18’s and 17’s.



Somehow I and those I am around continually get all the magical 1911/2011’s that just aren’t fussy.

 

[Formidilosus]

It does apply. Mil spec ARs are not drop safe unless the safety is on, and even then only with the right primers. And on those tens of millions of ARs, users fail to disengage the safety and will do so more often under pressure.

Some rifles with a more modern design have firing pin blocks and similar safety mechanisms. The MCX and 416 are good examples. That’s an improvement.

He asked how people can use the AR platform and not forget to take a safety off. What does a floating firing pin have to do with that?

 

[Dobermann]

Whatever pistol has the longest range- that’s the one to carry.

Ach, Form, why you gotta make me re-think what I thought I knew all over again ...??

 

[Dobermann]

I had a massive injury a few years ago and had to start all over from ground zero, and the diffence in performance between a good 1911 (in 45 with hot ammo no less) and a 9mm 2011 was dramatic ...

Can I just check I've got this around the right way - you found it easier to shoot at 1911 in 45 than a DS 1911 in 9mm?

People need to learn pure speed, and they need to learn pure precision and accuracy- but the bulk of the conditioning should be surgical speed shooting.

Hmm ... this made me pull my as-yet unread copy of Andy Stanford's book of the same name and pop it on top of my pistol reading pile to see if it has anything useful.

I never met him - apart from his DVDs back in the day, I saw a wacky online video of him at a Yaeger event a few years back, singing bawdy folk songs and telling rambling stories about how people laughed at Ayoob decades before ... seemed like he'd had too much moonshine or something, and who knows what the people who'd paid Yaeger for the class thought of it all.

But I trained with a couple of guys who were his contemporaries, who rated him as a shooter. I guess he was shooting since he was a teenager with an Afro back in the 70s, so he'd had the time to put in some work ...

 

[Xperimental]

For me it’s several things:
-Reliability
-Comfort shooting
-Grip size
-Grip angle
-Sights
-Trigger
-Nostalgia
-Heirloom weaponry
-And if I run out of ammo it doubles as a club lol!

 

[Dave0317]

No- safeties are an enabler. Far more people have ND’s than need to use their pistol martially- and safeties help greatly in not having ND’s. Again- the same bumbling boobs that miss a safety also miss reloads, draws, target transitions, movement, etc. The local soccer moms ability to drive has nothing to do with what vehicles can be driven best. I simply don’t care what bumbling boobs do- it takes a modicum of correct practice to make safety usage a 100% non factor. Literally 100% of the military is back to being issued a pistol with a safety and it is a non issue- and they suck.

Ben Stoeger has said that he has seen more AD/NDs with single action-manual safety equipped guns than any other type.

What do you think drives that?

I imagine he is around more people using pretty light triggers and other modifications.

There may be a context of someone that is not super confident swiping the safety off early, like in or near the holster, combined with “prepping” a light trigger, easily resulting in a discharge into the ground in front of the shooter. But he has not really elaborated to say that’s the case.

Have you seen many (or any) ADs, NDs, at a significantly different rate between action types?

Or like with most of this discussion, a little focused training, and neither action type is necessarily “unsafe”, but the manual safety gives you a very deliberate way to make the gun incapable of firing during holstering, movement, etc.

 

[solarshooter]

@Formidilosus, could you speak on dots? For carry guns or otherwise? I have not shot them extensively, and feel pretty comfortable/capable with irons. Don't really want to make the switch if I don't need to (cost, complexity, bigger/bulkier package), but if there's some massive performance gap and I need to climb that mountain, I'd like to know. Seems like you shoot irons just fine, and maybe carry irons?

 

[Sponge]

@solarshooter some decent discussion of that in the "most reliable and shootable 9mm" thread (also some good 1911/2011 vs other pistol discussion similar to the last page or so of this thread in there).
This post seems to be the more comprehensive post on the subject, but there are other posts about dots in that thread.
https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ble-9mm-semi-auto-pistols.401481/post-4119630

@Formidilosus on dots, what effect, if any, do you see on your no fail max ranges with dots?

ETA, coincidentally that post was exactly a year ago. ha

 

[rbutcher1234]

I don’t frame my statements or responses around what world class can do- I frame it around the audience it is intended for. The audience here is a thread about 1912’s and quite a few people learning to shoot 1911 relatively seriously.




No. You keep saying “tune” a gun. Unless you mean adjust an extractor correctly- which this thread is full of people learning to do easily, no- you do not have to tune anything.

What does “tune” mean to you? It’s not an engine.





What does that even mean? Did you read this thread that you are posting this in? I literally bought the cheapest 1911 made ($399) and had it working correctly in sub 20 minutes with 4 different types of magazines.

What is your personal experience with 1911’s for serious use- say in the last decade? What guns, what mags, what ammo, and what did you do to them?





Reread what I wrote.





And I care why? This thread isn’t about bumbling boobs. It’s a thread about what 1911’s and some best practices.





No- safeties are an enabler. Far more people have ND’s than need to use their pistol martially- and safeties help greatly in not having ND’s. Again- the same bumbling boobs that miss a safety also miss reloads, draws, target transitions, movement, etc. The local soccer moms ability to drive has nothing to do with what vehicles can be driven best. I simply don’t care what bumbling boobs do- it takes a modicum of correct practice to make safety usage a 100% non factor. Literally 100% of the military is back to being issued a pistol with a safety and it is a non issue- and they suck.




You are repeating internet talking points, and apparently match shooting- while ignoring all the glocks that didn’t work at those same matches. Glocks at USPSA matches are no more reliable than 1911’s or 2011’s at matches- they all get stupid stuff done to them, and they all malfunction.

It is quite easy to make a modern 1911 way more reliable than is needed for carry.



Nope. 100% false. Not only false, but those matches you shot for a decade show that- Single Stack has a higher hit factor than Production. By quite a bit historically. Single Stack has a HHF than Carry Optics.





These “costs” simply aren’t there if someone doesn’t want them to be.

This pistol has more than 20,000 rounds with one malfunction with 185gr semi-wadcutters
View attachment 1049261

This pistol went over 30,000 rounds without a single malfunction before being redone in 9mm (the Glock behind it is at 70,000’ish rounds at that point)
View attachment 1049274


This pistol is now nearing 12,000 rounds- it has not had a single malfunction:
View attachment 1049262


These pistols were brand new here-
View attachment 1049264


This is one of them at just over 40,000 rounds with zero cleaning ever, and zero malfunctions to this point.
View attachment 1049265

View attachment 1049266

Here it is after being thrown down range in gravel- somewhere around 30,000 rounds on it here-
View attachment 1049267


Of those four Staccato P’s- three are over 30,000 rounds with zero (0) malfunctions; and one is over 60,000 rounds with 2x malfunctions due to not ever being cleaned and so much carbon built up under the extractor that it couldn’t flex back and grab the case rim (right at 43,000 rounds). Extractor was scraped and hasn’t malfunctioned since.



I’ve shot a Glock or two as well.

Iron sighted G17 with over 80,000 rounds on it in this picture, with the dot gun behind it at about 20,000 at this point-

View attachment 1049269


The dot gun from above. G22 frame and 17 slide-
View attachment 1049272


Both those Glocks got shot until they had to be retired: one at 86,000 +/- rounds, and one with just over 100,000 rounds. Hit the picture limit, but in that same time span 2x G19’s were shot until they had to be replaced one at 120,000+/- and the other at just over 100,000. A G22 as well- though it doesn’t take much (thankfully) to wear one out. Multiple Berettas and Sig 226/228’s as well. Then of course Sig M18’s and 17’s.

View attachment 1049275

Somehow I and those I am around continually get all the magical 1911/2011’s that just aren’t fussy.

I also tape down my grip safety’s on guns with a manual safety, and I never took the time to pin them. Just hard to ride the safety thumbs forward grip and consistently disengage the grip safety with my hand size, particularly on 2011s.

I have never had an issue because I’m not an idiot and the safety only comes off right before the trigger press. Assuming you haven’t seen any issues taping those suckers down?

The only thing that gives me pause is somehow the tape shifting or getting residue somewhere it shouldn’t, but it’s never actually been anything I’ve experienced.

 

[solarshooter]

@solarshooter some decent discussion of that in the "most reliable and shootable 9mm" thread (also some good 1911/2011 vs other pistol discussion similar to the last page or so of this thread in there).
This post seems to be the more comprehensive post on the subject, but there are other posts about dots in that thread.
https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ble-9mm-semi-auto-pistols.401481/post-4119630

@Formidilosus on dots, what effect, if any, do you see on your no fail max ranges with dots?

ETA, coincidentally that post was exactly a year ago. ha

Thanks, I had searched this thread but not seen much.

 

[Formidilosus]

Can I just check I've got this around the right way - you found it easier to shoot at 1911 in 45 than a DS 1911 in 9mm?


Hmm ... this made me pull my as-yet unread copy of Andy Stanford's book of the same name an pop it on top of my pistol reading pile to see if it has anything useful.

I never met him - apart from his DVDs back in the day, I saw a wacky online video of him at a Yaeger event a few years back, singing bawdy folk songs and telling rambling stories about how people laughed at Ayoob decades before ... seemed like he'd had too much moonshine or something, and who knows what the people who'd paid Yaeger for the class thought of it all.

But I trained with a couple of guys who were his contemporaries, who rated him as a shooter. I guess he was shooting since he was a teenager with an Afro back in the 70s, so he'd had the time to put in some work ...

Haha. SSS was actually the first pistol class I took. And he said my 1911 was the first he had ever seen make it through a week long class without a malfunction- actually had several G19’s malfunction in the class, including his. Hahaha.

I’ve taken a lot of classes, and was already a decent competitor when I took it, but Surgical Speed Shooting is probably still the overall most impactful pistol course I have taken.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ben Stoeger has said that he has seen more AD/NDs with single action-manual safety equipped guns than any other type.

What do you think drives that?

I imagine he is around more people using pretty light triggers and other modifications.

There may be a context of someone that is not super confident swiping the safety off early, like in or near the holster, combined with “prepping” a light trigger, easily resulting in a discharge into the ground in front of the shooter. But he has not really elaborated to say that’s the case.

Yes- that’s a function of USPSA, 1lb triggers (or less), and shooters moving with fingers still on the trigger. Sometimes it happens due to prepping the trigger too early for the same reasons.

In total it’s a game thing- completely reversed in real life. Unfortunately in real life I have been around quite a few ND’s (probably 20+) and all have been with Glocks or other striker fired pistols without thumb safeties, except one with an M9. My ND 25 years ago was with a striker fired gun- I’ve never seen an ND with a 1911/2011 in real life actually.

However, around 2011 or 2012 I changed how those I was around thought and trained with guns and I haven’t seen one with people I’m around since then.

Have you seen many (or any) ADs, NDs, at a significantly different rate between action types?

Yes- pistol without safeties at all have been almost all of the ND’s I have seen as above.

Or like with most of this discussion, a little focused training, and neither action type is necessarily “unsafe”, but the manual safety gives you a very deliberate way to make the gun incapable of firing during holstering, movement, etc.

“Unsafe” isn’t really a thing, but for the same exact reason that no one would carry a loaded AR around without a thumb safety, doing the same with a pistol is also kinda silly- and I carry Glocks. It’s just that we’ve grown to except it. Now you’ve got people carrying and using pistols with sub 5lb, short or no take up triggers, with no safety- and then wondering why guns are going “bang” when they shouldn’t.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus, could you speak on dots? For carry guns or otherwise? I have not shot them extensively, and feel pretty comfortable/capable with irons. Don't really want to make the switch if I don't need to (cost, complexity, bigger/bulkier package), but if there's some massive performance gap and I need to climb that mountain, I'd like to know. Seems like you shoot irons just fine, and maybe carry irons?

Follow the link below and see if that answers your questions.

@solarshooter some decent discussion of that in the "most reliable and shootable 9mm" thread (also some good 1911/2011 vs other pistol discussion similar to the last page or so of this thread in there).
This post seems to be the more comprehensive post on the subject, but there are other posts about dots in that thread.
https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ble-9mm-semi-auto-pistols.401481/post-4119630

@Formidilosus on dots, what effect, if any, do you see on your no fail max ranges with dots?

ETA, coincidentally that post was exactly a year ago. ha

Dots don’t dramatically really change the range at which I can use the pistols as I have good eyesight and still shoot irons well, however they do add about 5’ish yards to some of the guns. Some are just limited by poor precision of the pistols- Gen 3 Glocks, Sig M17/18’s when shot a bit, etc. and dots don’t change that. Once the pistols are sub 3” at 25y for consistent 10 round groups- then dots start to make a difference for me. For most, dots help precision a lot.

 

[Formidilosus]

I also tape down my grip safety’s on guns with a manual safety, and I never took the time to pin them. Just hard to ride the safety thumbs forward grip and consistently disengage the grip safety with my hand size, particularly on 2011s.

I have never had an issue because I’m not an idiot and the safety only comes off right before the trigger press. Assuming you haven’t seen any issues taping those suckers down?

The only thing that gives me pause is somehow the tape shifting or getting residue somewhere it shouldn’t, but it’s never actually been anything I’ve experienced.

I only taped the grip safeties because of the injury I had and my skeletor hands I had at the time with no muscle to deactivate the grip. I have all my guns grip safeties sensitized to where any movement at all disengages them. I greatly prefer having a grip safety done right if it is a non game pistol.

 

[rbutcher1234]

I only taped the grip safeties because of the injury I had and my skeletor hands I had at the time with no muscle to deactivate the grip. I have all my guns grip safeties sensitized to where any movement at all disengages them. I greatly prefer having a grip safety done right if it is a non game pistol.

I’m tracking now.

Unfortunately for me and anatomy, that would mean either shooting a 2011 with my thumb under the safety (don’t want to do), taping the grip safety, or not shooting a 2011. I’ve already swapped in the shortest trigger reach I can on that gun. At least it’s in a safariland level ALS.

 

[Sponge]

I greatly prefer having a grip safety done right if it is a non game pistol.

would this be grip safety disengagement at 50% travel for carry/field guns?

 

[Formidilosus]

To address reliability:

Yes, there are a bunch- most 1911’s that you will see at ranges that malfunction. The reasons why are very simple.

#1- most are 45’s and shooters- especially the generation most likely to have 45 auto 1911’s, are absolute cheapskates and use the cheapest, junkiest ammo they can get. This includes reloads. Reloaded pistol ammo is about the hardest thing to get reliable, and 45 ammo is by far the most likely reloaded ammo for the casual person. 9mm is cheap enough that most just go and buy Winchester white box or Blazer Brass- both of which are far better than reloads.

#2- there are 30 different make and models of magazines- most of cheap junk.

#3- the extractor does not to be adjusted correctly, and often it is not from the factory.

#4- recoil and nainssprings too light.

#5- 1911 and 2011’s need to be lubed, they do not work well when dry.




If you take any decent 1911 in 45 auto (Springfield, Colt, Tisas, etc), adjust the extractor, put an 18.5lb recoil spring and 23lb mainspring in it, use Tripp Cobra, Ed Brown, or Wilson ETM mags; use quality 45 auto factory ammo, and lube it- I expect 8,000-10,000 trouble free rounds from the pistol. At that point the extractor should be bearing the end of its life and a Wilson BP for to it, as well small MIM parts might start to go, and you want to replace the springs every 4,000 to 5,000 rounds.

For 9mm the same applies, however it’s a recoil spring on the heavy side and use hot/the hottest 9mm ammo you can with McGar 10 round plastic follower mags. Cobra mags, and Ed Browns are ok too. The extractor doesn’t really wear out in 9mm’s, and small parts breakage is way less. Spring replacement is probably a good call every 10,000 to 15,000 rounds.


Now, a properly built 1911 45 with no MIM parts and a couple spare extractors will go 40,000 to 50,000 rounds without issues, and at that point needs to be looked at for a rebuild. A 9mm version of same, I’d functionally a Glock. 9mm just doesn’t wear out 1911’s/2011’s.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m tracking now.

Unfortunately for me and anatomy, that would mean either shooting a 2011 with my thumb under the safety (don’t want to do), taping the grip safety, or not shooting a 2011. I’ve already swapped in the shortest trigger reach I can on that gun. At least it’s in a safariland level ALS.

Why is that?