1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Howler65]

That's an interesting observation...IIRC, the original Staccato C was a polymer-framed single stack, but I can't think of any others out there. That said, there aren't too many situations I can imagine though, where there'd be enough of an advantage in saving a 1/4" or so in width, to make up for the loss of 7 or 8 rounds of capacity.

I have both a single stack OG C and a compact grip C…3.5oz weight difference between the two loaded. Love both pistols, nod to the 2024 C though…

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Why this over the CS?

I wanted to try a little heavier gun than the aluminum CS and the reviews of Gilbert’s work are all glowing.

 

[RockAndSage]

I wanted to try a little heavier gun than the aluminum CS and the reviews of Gilbert’s work are all glowing.

Any idea on how much longer you can expect for that Forza to arrive?

 

[Hooked]

I’ve learned a lot reading through this thread and other threads on Rokslide regarding selecting a shootable pistol. I have not read much about how sight radius impacts pistol selection.

I am a novice pistol shooter and plan on buying a 2011. The Staccato HD P4 and P4.5 appear to be good choices, but I have a concern. I will primarily carry the pistol in a chest holster. Due to the pistol being in the elements, I do not intend to use a red dot. Is the Staccato HD series a poor choice due to the short sight radius? Would I be better off looking into a Kimber 2K11 that offers a longer sight radius?

I’m interested to hear how others factored in the importance of sight radius when selecting a highly shootable pistol.

 

[huntsman22]

put a cover on the reddot...... no biggie.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Due to the pistol being in the elements

Can't you just use an enclosed red dot?

 

[huntsman22]

I keep covers on my enclosed ones, too.....

 

[RockAndSage]

I’ve learned a lot reading through this thread and other threads on Rokslide regarding selecting a shootable pistol. I have not read much about how sight radius impacts pistol selection.

I am a novice pistol shooter and plan on buying a 2011. The Staccato HD P4 and P4.5 appear to be good choices, but I have a concern. I will primarily carry the pistol in a chest holster. Due to the pistol being in the elements, I do not intend to use a red dot. Is the Staccato HD series a poor choice due to the short sight radius? Would I be better off looking into a Kimber 2K11 that offers a longer sight radius?

I’m interested to hear how others factored in the importance of sight radius when selecting a highly shootable pistol.

At self-defense distances, sight-radius differences in accuracy at speed are pretty minimal. Especially with the blocky sights that are on almost all your common handguns. You'd probably have to stretch a shot out past 50yds for a longer sight-radius to start providing a meaningful benefit. Especially as a novice pistol shooter. It's not an issue I'd be concerned about in practical realities.

 

[Escalante11]

Sorry if this has been addressed on a prior page but why not just go with a Shadow 2 Compact?

Can be had for around $1k and seem like a more straight forward solution for an affordable, high capacity, metal framed, hammer fired pistol. Relative to tinkering with 1911/2011s of the same price range that is.

Would appreciated your thoughts here, as I don’t know much about the 2011 world.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Sorry if this has been addressed on a prior page but why not just go with a Shadow 2 Compact?

Can be had for around $1k and seem like a more straight forward solution for an affordable, high capacity, metal framed, hammer fired pistol. Relative to tinkering with 1911/2011s of the same price range that is.

Shadow 2's are more complex than 1911s/2011s, have their own reliability quirks, and are DA/SA with (from the factory) 8.5-9# trigger pulls in the DA. They also have a fair bit longer trigger reach but since it's a pivoting trigger the pull doesn't feel quite as nice. It's harder to manipulate the slide on them as well. And the grips that come on the Shadows are almost un-usable for serious shooting.

A Shadow 2 OR runs about $1500 right now (I just bought one 2 weeks ago but got a big discount), which is about what you'd pay for an Alpha Foxtrot Romulus. The AF seems to not have nearly as many hiccups as, for instance, a Springfield Prodigy or similarly priced 2011. Hell for $300 more you can get a Kimber 2k11. Or for $999 you can get a Kimber DS Warrior that just released which is allegedly a budget 2k11.

If someone were getting a pistol that needed to qualify for USPSA Carry Optics division, which is why I bought one, then Shadows are awesome. I put 400 rounds through mine and immediately sent it off to be Cajunized so we'll see what the end result looks like.

 

[Escalante11]

Shadow 2's are more complex than 1911s/2011s, have their own reliability quirks, and are DA/SA with (from the factory) 8.5-9# trigger pulls in the DA. They also have a fair bit longer trigger reach but since it's a pivoting trigger the pull doesn't feel quite as nice. It's harder to manipulate the slide on them as well. And the grips that come on the Shadows are almost un-usable for serious shooting.

A Shadow 2 OR runs about $1500 right now (I just bought one 2 weeks ago but got a big discount), which is about what you'd pay for an Alpha Foxtrot Romulus. The AF seems to not have nearly as many hiccups as, for instance, a Springfield Prodigy or similarly priced 2011.

If someone were getting a pistol that needed to qualify for USPSA Carry Optics division, which is why I bought one, then Shadows are awesome. I put 400 rounds through mine and immediately sent it off to be Cajunized so we'll see what the end result looks like.

Appreciate the thoughts John, makes sense.

Given Shadow 2 Compacts can be had for ~$1,100 out the door, are there any current compact 2011 offerings that offer similar high-end performance and QC out of the box for that price? Or just the Alpha Foxtrot Romulus you noted?

I'm not tring to stir the pot, I'm genuinly interested in the 2011 trend but my impression was that I would be gambling a bit on QC with the current compact 2011s offerings at the same price point, and that they may not compare performance wise without tinkering and upgrading. Apologies again if this has been discussed already, just can't get myself to read the full 54 pages here

 

[JohnJohnson]

Given Shadow 2 Compacts can be had for ~$1,100 out the door, are there any current compact 2011 offerings that offer similar high-end performance and QC out of the box for that price?

I was under the impression this thread was about range guns, not carry guns. So a compact anything wouldn't really interest me for that, outside of a full size Shadow 2 not qualifying for IDPA CO if you're into that.

I'm not tring to stir the pot, I'm genuinly interested in the 2011 trend but my impression was that I would be gambling a bit on QC with the current compact 2011s offerings at the same price point ($1,100)

You're probably correct on that. The CZ QC isn't as safe of a bet as people think but it's probably a better bet than a 2011 in that exact price range.

 

[Escalante11]

I was under the impression this thread was about range guns, not carry guns. So a compact anything wouldn't really interest me for that, outside of a full size Shadow 2 not qualifying for IDPA CO if you're into that.

You're probably correct on that. The CZ QC isn't as safe of a bet as people think but it's probably a better bet than a 2011 in that exact price range.

Got it, sorry about that. I shoulda read up on this thread a bit more. I thought y'all were picking up 1911/2011s for bear defense, carry, etc..

I know some of CZ's entry-level polymer offerings have had a few reported issues over the years, but I haven't ever heard much about Shadow 2 quality control not being a sure thing. I'll do some digging there, appreciate you highlighting that for me John.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Got it, sorry about that. I shoulda read up on this thread a bit more. I thought y'all were picking up 1911/2011s for bear defense, carry, etc..

I know some of CZ's entry-level polymer offerings have had a few reported issues over the years, but I haven't ever heard much about Shadow 2 quality control not being a sure thing. I'll do some digging there, appreciate you highlighting that for me John.

Here's a few videos from Ben Stoeger on the general subject of CZ Shadow 2's and how they stack up against 2011s. CZ Shadow 2's can put people into extraction hell specifically, which is hard to get out of. Last step after getting my gun back from Cajun will be getting the chamber reamed to help reliability with a variety of bullets. I'll probably have Patriot Defense do it, it's only like $65.

 

[rileybassman]

I've had good experiences on the CZ front (have had 3-4) and really like my S2 Carry (over the S2 Compact).

It's not a 2011, but I do feel like they are a better value than a staccato C (tho admittedly, my C is my favorite handgun).

Comments above are correct - it is 2 distinct trigger presses - but that is a feature and not a bug depending on your mindset is and SA is an option if you have an offhand shot at a coyote or something at 80 yards.

There are a handful more parts, but honestly, I don't find them that hard to work on... I've completely disassembled 2011s and CZs and both are serviceable IMO. Firing pin retaining pin and trigger return spring are two of the "weaker" points that need to be replaced/serviced.

Parts and holsters are plentiful for CZs. CGW has all you would ever need.

Accuracy wise, the shadow series is so close to the 2011s I have had that I am 100% the limiting factor. Have shot both the C and the S2 carry off of a rest back-to-back, and both are very accurate handguns.

If warranty and support is of value, Staccato for the win, if aftermarket support and parts availability is your jam and you self-smith, CZ for the win.

I've had 1 stoppage (FTF) in the last 1000 rounds with my S2 carry and 0 with my staccato.

 

[Escalante11]

Here's a few videos from Ben Stoeger on the general subject of CZ Shadow 2's and how they stack up against 2011s. CZ Shadow 2's can put people into extraction hell specifically, which is hard to get out of. Last step after getting my gun back from Cajun will be getting the chamber reamed to help reliability with a variety of bullets. I'll probably have Patriot Defense do it, it's only like $65.

Thanks for sharing, just got through them. I should confirm, I'm not questioning the overall draw of 2011s. Hard to compare to a high-end 2011 such as a Staccato.. That said, I'm struggling with the concept that more entry level 2011s (say < $1,500) offer near the value, shootability, or reliability of a Shadow 2 Compact out of the box.

To be fair, Ben is comparing a ~$1,200 Shadow 2 to a ~$6k 2011 that he has refurbished annually. And that really is my whole point here.

I guess I can see the upside and higher ceiling of entry level 2011s if one wants to tinker, upgrade, and mod things out over time. That can be half the fun when it comes to a hunting rifle, but not sure I'd want to go down that route for a personal defense weapon.

 

[RockAndSage]

Given Shadow 2 Compacts can be had for ~$1,100 out the door, are there any current compact 2011 offerings that offer similar high-end performance and QC out of the box for that price?

There are relatively few 2011s in that size range, and even fewer coming close to that price, and even fewer still that are very reliable, unfortunately. 1911s and 2011s just entered a golden age, where reliability has finally caught up to shootability, with the shootability and performance getting even better than ever. But - the reliability issue is still a plague for lesser manufacturers, and it shows up most often in cheap guns. It's a space where, in general, you still get what you pay for. And the demand for a smaller EDC size hasn't really been perceived much by the industry, though that's starting to change fast.

There are a couple of terminology things that might be useful for you. The size range you're referring to here are what you'd generally hear called either a "commander" size, or a "Glock 19" size - bigger are full size, and smaller are more of what you'll hear called "compact". So the S2 Compacts are actually a bit of a confusing use of the word, as they aren't compact guns, as common usage would describe them. They're in that commander/G19 size range.

Another item is what people mean with 2011s, and 2011 vs 1911. They essentially have the same slide and ignition system (hammer, sear, etc), but what people are calling 2011s are the ones using double-stack mags, and 1911s using single-stack mags. It's an issue of complete pedantic gun-nerdery, but technically only Staccato has the branding/legal right to call their guns 2011s.

About the cheapest "2011" you'll find that seems to be reliable enough for work would be Kimber's new DS Warrior. I haven't shot one, but they're getting great reviews. It's not in a commander size yet though. Next bet on cheapest reliable 2011 would probably be one of Kimber's 2k11s, which do come in commander length slides, but you're looking at around $1700. There are others out there, but they tend to be hit or miss on reliability, even by individual guns, so you take your chances if you're looking for stone-cold reliability out of the box. But, this whole thread is great if you really want to learn the system on the cheap, and like tinkering.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Any idea on how much longer you can expect for that Forza to arrive?

I emailed him last night to find out, as I was curious about that too. 12.5 weeks wait right now.

 

[EuroOptic]

Picked her up this morning and ran 380'isn rounds through her with zero flaws.

First time shooting any sort of 1911.

One of the concerns I saw when looking at the Kimbers the C&H plates that came with the gun. Kimber must have listened because mine came with a Tag brand plate.

Other issue I knew about from YouTube was the mag release is stiff. Not sure if there's a fix for that or just needs to be used more.

I will be buying a smaller grip for it. I have really small hands. So I need something that's as slim as possible.
Also already have a shorter trigger shoe coming that will help that too.

As far as shooting it goes, it was mind blowing. First shot was an X at 10 yards. The new SRO was dead nuts on!

It's crazy how much more consistent I am with this thing vs any other pistol. It was child's play to shoot tiny groups. Velo can sized group at 10-15 yards with no crazy wtfs.

The trigger is epic. But to be fair I can only compare it to a higher end Glock after market.

The comp is great!!! I shot at the indoor range so I couldn't shoot more than two double taps. But it was so easy to stay on target and get off two accurate shots. I'll run her out side next weekend and have some real fun. But the comp didn't seem super loud or annoying at all. But switching to my G19 I could definitely feel the difference it makes in muzzle rise.

I don't think I made a bad purchase at all. Just need to maybe change the mag release spring and the grip. And trigger shoe.

Highly recommend

Raised and Extended Slide Release for 1911/2011 Models (Excl. Glock Style Mags)
i run one of these on my XC, and have run them on my glocks for many years.
I couldnt stand having to break the firing grip to drop the slide on a 2011.

 

[Hooked]

At self-defense distances, sight-radius differences in accuracy at speed are pretty minimal. Especially with the blocky sights that are on almost all your common handguns. You'd probably have to stretch a shot out past 50yds for a longer sight-radius to start providing a meaningful benefit. Especially as a novice pistol shooter. It's not an issue I'd be concerned about in practical realities.

Thank you for the explanation. That confirms the sight radius will not have a significant impact on my intended uses for the pistol.