1911’s in general, 9mm versions specifically

[Formidilosus]

On demand with a handgun, people (or at least shooters) in general, probably well less than 1%. People in those sort of specialized units, I would guess around 40-50%,

I wish. On demand clean bills drills shot cold in sub 2.5 seconds is USPSA high master/Grandmaster level. That is so far above “40-50%” of people in specialized units that it isn’t even the same planet. The average on demand clean bill drill shot cold from “special” people is around 6 seconds- if it has to be clean.

Probably around the same when you look at competitive shooters who actually train and compete regularly (ie someone who is a low level A or high B class USPSA or high level SS or low expert class IDPA shooter).

A demand clean bill drills shot cold (say 8 out of 10 tries clean and under time) is somewhere between Master and Grandmaster. B and A class USPSA and especially not SS or Expert IDPA is nowhere near that.

That was basically my way of saying don't train to make headshots for personal defense with a handgun unless you are one of the top .5% of shooters; and, even then be honest with yourself and understand that being able to make that sort of shot on a static range, or even in competition, is not the same as doing it in a life or death scenario.

It doesn’t matter what someone is or not- the target, nor its reaction- changes based on skill. I am not saying someone should or should not target anything, however the head is not functionally smaller than the target that must be hit in the chest to achieve rapid incapacitation on any mammal. Quite the opposite, the head is larger than the structure in the body that will cause immediate incapacitation.

Beyond that, the skill to hit a 6” target at 0-15’ish yards under stress is not world class level shooting.

 

[Fatcamp]

I now feel immensely better about my Bill Drill times.

 

[Formidilosus]

I now feel immensely better about my Bill Drill times.

You shouldn’t.


Grin

 

[Long Cut]

I haven’t gone through all 14 pages so forgive me if this video has been posted already… BUT claiming 1911/2011’s are “drop safe” is a lie.

Here’s video proof with multiple different 1911/2011’s in several calibers, different brands… ALL failing. Even the infamous SIG P320 passed this drop test.

Not here to argue, just providing video evidence.

Bye

 

[TML75]

Very good pistols. If they still made them, they would be the answer for a production CCW pistol.

In pictures the older single stack C’s frame looks just as wide as a double stack model. Is that true? If so, what makes the single stack version preferable for carry?

 

[Fatcamp]

In pictures the older single stack C’s frame looks just as wide as a double stack model. Is that true? If so, what makes the single stack version preferable for carry?

I thought the same. Planned on finding one to hold before moving along.

 

[RussDXT]

I’ve shot both the old c and the cs. Not a lot of difference in grip width in the cs with much better capacity and an external extractor. Makes it a very easy decision for me.

I carry a cs and a c most of the time (the c is the new full size 17 rd grip). And the occasional 365.

 

[Formidilosus]

In pictures the older single stack C’s frame looks just as wide as a double stack model. Is that true? If so, what makes the single stack version preferable for carry?

The original single stack C’s are a bit wider than traditional 1911’s, but they are as wide as the current double stack C and C/S models.

 

[Nine Banger]

In pictures the older single stack C’s frame looks just as wide as a double stack model. Is that true? If so, what makes the single stack version preferable for carry?

I don't have an old C but the new C is actually narrower than a 1911.

They beat the system with the polymer grip module.





The new C is pretty much the same size as a G45.



I wonder 2 things:
- why they called the new gun a "c" too...seems dumb...the old single stack "c" isn't "old".
- why they released a 3.5" barrel gun (CS) and 4" barrel gun (C) before a full sized 5" gun. I bet that's what they will release next.

A real 1911 is more similar to a G34:

 

[RockAndSage]

I don't have an old C but the new C is actually narrower than a 1911.

They beat the system with the polymer grip module.


View attachment 914896View attachment 914894View attachment 914895


The new C is pretty much the same size as a G45.
View attachment 914897View attachment 914893


I wonder 2 things:
- why they called the new gun a "c" too...seems dumb...the old single stack "c" isn't "old".
- why they released a 3.5" barrel gun (CS) and 4" barrel gun (C) before a full sized 5" gun. I bet that's what they will release next.

A real 1911 is more similar to a G34:
View attachment 914899
View attachment 914900

Great photos, really puts the size of the new C in perspective.

 

[RockAndSage]

I don't have an old C but the new C is actually narrower than a 1911.

They beat the system with the polymer grip module.


View attachment 914896View attachment 914894View attachment 914895


The new C is pretty much the same size as a G45.
View attachment 914897View attachment 914893


I wonder 2 things:
- why they called the new gun a "c" too...seems dumb...the old single stack "c" isn't "old".
- why they released a 3.5" barrel gun (CS) and 4" barrel gun (C) before a full sized 5" gun. I bet that's what they will release next.

A real 1911 is more similar to a G34:
View attachment 914899
View attachment 914900

Any chance of getting grip-circumference measurements between a 1911, the Staccato C, and the G45?

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't have an old C but the new C is actually narrower than a 1911.

They beat the system with the polymer grip module.


View attachment 914896View attachment 914894View attachment 914895


The new C is pretty much the same size as a G45.
View attachment 914897View attachment 914893


I wonder 2 things:
- why they called the new gun a "c" too...seems dumb...the old single stack "c" isn't "old".
- why they released a 3.5" barrel gun (CS) and 4" barrel gun (C) before a full sized 5" gun. I bet that's what they will release next.

A real 1911 is more similar to a G34:
View attachment 914899
View attachment 914900

At the widest point the C/CS and normal to thick 1911 grips are the same as you show. However, the front strap and backstraps being a smaller diameter and rounded/oval have a relatively large difference in feel and even control. Also, the general hardest portion of a pistol to conceal is the bottom back part of the backstrap- right where a 1911 is thinner.
The original Brouwer M1811 grip module was basically between a Staccato 2011 grip and the C/CS. The next iteration was functionally what the Staccato C/CS are. By iteration 4 IIRC the front strap, grip panels, etc were applied. Something like 70,000 rounds were fired in the development of the grip module from all classes of shooters- barely competent to world class; and everything pushed it back to a 100% shape/size/contour of a 1911.


Blue arrows point to where the human hand is smallest in cross section while gripping a pistol, red the largest. Now look at most 1911 grips from the top-

 

[sz28]

2x Tisas Night Stalker 9mm’s. Functioned without issue, and shot well. About 25 yards-

This one needed a 6 o’clock hold with the issued sights.
View attachment 909979



This one shot POA on the tip of the front sight- 96-2x
View attachment 909980

What's your opinion on the grips on the Night Stalker?

 

[Fatcamp]

You shouldn’t.


Grin

Haven't touched my pistol in over a week so cold as can be. Drawn this gun probably 1000 times since i got it back from being milled. Out of a competition holster, though.

I didn't have a USPSA target but think the inside box is about right. Sooo, not clean and a little slow, but getting back what I lost through inactivity feels nice.

 

[Dobermann]

Now that @Formidilosus has me going down the 1911 rabbithole, I've come across Hilton Yam's videos, which have a lot of useful info.

On every new 1911, Hilton performs a test fire protocol, including extractor function check, slidelock test, and jacketed hollowpoint feeding test. This is discussed an demonstrated in this video about the Springfield TRP, starting at this timestamp:

Hope this is helpful to some of you!

 

[CaptArab]

For CCW I rotate a 26, a 19 with light, and a 34.
Is it worth getting the stubby grip CS and a long grip C24?

Are they close enough for the C to do it all?
I appendix in a tenicor or JMCK.

 

[Southernfried]

Unless someone comes out with replacements parts that solve the issues WITH lots of open testing…. Not optimistic.

The Sig P320 was interesting to me because you could get it with a thumb safety and then the Brouwer M1811 grip module which made it as close to a $700 1911 in 9mm that was available. With those it was a very shootable pistol as far as striker fired guns go.
However, now that getting a 9mm 1911 or 2011 that works isn’t hard, and combined with the P320 issues- I just don’t see the advantage to the gun.

Has anyone actually seen the report on the airman and the M18? On ar15.com, there is a thread there about the initial group that had their using an M18 "paused", and prevented them from using them, that this young man was a member of, has since been rescinded? They now have their M18's back and now they are investigating the rumors that either 1, the airman tossed his weapon in his holster on to a table and it fired, and 2, they are investigating that the poor guy was actually shot by a friend, when they were horsing around with the handgun. It is getting where I believe nothing in the news anymore but the truth has to be there some where. Said thread about horseplay and the M18.......I may be holding out for Brouwer to come out with a M1811 grip for the 365 series, Im thinking it would be the size of an officer or commander 1911, but I could be wishing on a star as well lol this is a great thread, and thanks for starting it.

 

[Dobermann]

Has anyone actually seen the report on the airman and the M18? On ar15.com, there is a thread there about the initial group that had their using an M18 "paused", and prevented them from using them, that this young man was a member of, has since been rescinded? They now have their M18's back and now they are investigating the rumors that either 1, the airman tossed his weapon in his holster on to a table and it fired, and 2, they are investigating that the poor guy was actually shot by a friend, when they were horsing around with the handgun. It is getting where I believe nothing in the news anymore but the truth has to be there some where. Said thread about horseplay and the M18.......I may be holding out for Brouwer to come out with a M1811 grip for the 365 series, Im thinking it would be the size of an officer or commander 1911, but I could be wishing on a star as well lol this is a great thread, and thanks for starting it.

From what I'm seeing, there's a couple of investigations pending, so best to wait in this case rather than engage in speculation.

However, for a wider history about Sig Sauer (USA), this video from Misha helps disambiguate Sig Switzerland, Germany, and the US, and covers some of the challenges of the US company:

And his video prior to that one covers some of their practices, and takes a look at the 320 issue, placing it in a longer history of problems with issued sidearms, and how other companies have chosen to fix, rather than deny, the problems:

 

[RussDXT]

For CCW I rotate a 26, a 19 with light, and a 34.
Is it worth getting the stubby grip CS and a long grip C24?

Are they close enough for the C to do it all?
I appendix in a tenicor or JMCK.

I have a cs and full size c. I also have a few Glocks. For fun and science I ran my shot timer to see how fast I could draw and make three hits on a 3/4 silhouette target at 15 yds.

Maybe out of 5-10 strings of making the shots I would maybe be .05 seconds faster with the staccatos. The catch is that I would not have the consistent accuracy and would occasionally drop a shot (would not count) with the Glocks way more than the staccatos.

I also ran my XC and really dropped time.

Here is the list of what I was running. If a second number is listed it is the time it took to draw and hit a 8” target once. All listed numbers are averages of at least 5 results.

The g34 and 19 have rmr’s and gpt’s. C has a rmr cc, xc has a sro, and the cs is iron sights.

Wilson and Ed brown are .45’s.

Pistol times 15 yds 3 shots
Ed Brown 3.25
Wilson 3.56 2.16
365 3.59 2.26
Rxm 2.785 2.26
Macro 3.14 2.2
CS 2.8 2.1
G19 mos 2.86 2.3
C 2.66 1.93
G34 2.62 1.925
Xc 2.394 1.8

 

[NSI]

....I may be holding out for Brouwer to come out with a M1811 grip for the 365 series, Im thinking it would be the size of an officer or commander 1911, but I could be wishing on a star as well lol this is a great thread, and thanks for starting it.

The Mischief Machine Commander module is excellent.

-J