16" suppressed elk gun

[mtnwrunner]

Let's keep this thread civil with no measuring of adult appendages.
That being said, I, along with others on rokslide have switched to smaller calibers in lieu of magnum mania. I don't care who you are, you are NOT going to be able to be as accurate with a heavier recoiling rifle. I'm a decent shot and have killed my share of animals with the "big uns" but with the development of better bullets, powder, technology, etc.......the smaller calibers kill very very well and I shoot them more accurately.
AND they are just plain fun. I never really practiced with the big bores......now I shoot weekly. When is the last time you shot 200 rounds in a practice session with a 338 edge?? Just got in 2500 rounds of Black Hills 77 tmk's........gonna be busy for awhile.

Randy

 

[fwafwow]

Yup, I’ve shot probably 25 animals with a 243.

Seen a few others killed with anemic 6.5s and killed a couple with a 6.5 prc that I wasn’t overly impressed with the results.

Not a huge sample size with my 6.5, but I have no urge to continue it when I have better tools in the safe.

Ill probably shoot a cow with my 6 creed next week just to see, but I’m not going to tell anyone it’s the best choice with a sample size of one.

“and the bullets advocated for on the posted threads?”?

 

[Montana Slim]

Seems like the rub is your label of "sub optimal" (smaller) cartridges when the longest threads on rokslide seem to be quite a bit of evidence that they are actually the optimal delivery system for lethality for the majority of shooters, and in particular new/learning shooters?

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Not a huge sample size with my 6.5, but I have no urge to continue it when I have better tools in the safe.

Ill probably shoot a cow with my 6 creed next week just to see, but I’m not going to tell anyone it’s the best choice with a sample size of one.

I have to admit that Form is wearing me down with his well thought out informative posts, but reading your comment about having better tools available reminds me of something I used to say arguing fishing gear. A Ford Fiesta will get me to work every day but I'd still rather drive my truck. With suppressors becoming more common the argument over more recoil is largely mute, so if recoil is out of the equation and comparing same projectiles and such I'm still trying to figure out how larger could ever not perform at least as well as smaller. I've never felt recoil while shooting at an animal regardless, even with rifles that punished me at the range.

Wanted to add I'm not a smaller caliber hater, wife and kids grew up shooting everything with .223 AR's and two of my personal three hunting rifles are 6.5's. I actually enjoy shooting s.aller calibers, my absolute favorite is the 6.8 SPC of all things, though it's more weak than small it's just a ton of fun.

 

[WRO]

Let's keep this thread civil with no measuring of adult appendages.
That being said, I, along with others on rokslide have switched to smaller calibers in lieu of magnum mania. I don't care who you are, you are NOT going to be able to be as accurate with a heavier recoiling rifle. I'm a decent shot and have killed my share of animals with the "big uns" but with the development of better bullets, powder, technology, etc.......the smaller calibers kill very very well and I shoot them more accurately.
AND they are just plain fun. I never really practiced with the big bores......now I shoot weekly. When is the last time you shot 200 rounds in a practice session with a 338 edge?? Just got in 2500 rounds of Black Hills 77 tmk's........gonna be busy for awhile.

Randy

Why? Because you can’t validate and squeeze the trigger in the same fashion on a larger caliber?


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[WRO]

“and the bullets advocated for on the posted threads?”?

ELDMs have been mentioned multiple times which is my bullet of choice.

Had a couple of issues with them, but am overall happy with them.


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[WRO]

Seems like the rub is your label of "sub optimal" (smaller) cartridges when the longest threads on rokslide seem to be quite a bit of evidence that they are actually the optimal delivery system for lethality for the majority of shooters, and in particular new/learning shooters?

Really, then why doesn’t every elk guide out there tell their clients to bring a 223 or 6mm?

Rokslide is it’s own little world. No different than any other forum. Some love 7mm-08s etc.

What’s optimal on the internets and real life greatly differ a lot of the time.


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[Formidilosus]

Everyone wants to post what happens when shit goes right, no one wants to post when shit goes wrong.

I have no problem with posting what happens when things go wrong.

On the last couple of years-

Elk, 300 PRC, 212gr ELD-X, 984 yards. 14 shots with 3 hits. Once in the stomach, twice in the hips. The hunter wounded the elk right at the start, so this was trying to put it down. Rifle also malfunctioned repeatedly- trigger locked up, failure to feeds, failure to eject, etc. elk moved about 20 yards and stood there. Two of use hiked back to the truck to get another rifle, as the hunter had run out of ammo. Came back and two hits with a 6XC and 115gr DTACS at 970 yards, one breaking the “shoulder”, and elk fell over. Total time from first hit with 300 PRC to when we arrived back with the 6XC- about 48 minutes. Total time until falling dead from first shot with the 6XC- about 30 seconds. Hunter flinched horribly with 300 PRC despot muzzle break and ear protection. Also extreme problem of finding and the losing the animal in the scope due to high magnification. I turned the scope on the 6xc to 8x and would not let him turn it up- no problems with finding and keeping the elk in the scope including during recoil.


Elk, 300 PRC 225gr ELD-M, 636 yards. Flinched and missed by feet hitting another legal elk in the neck.

Elk 6cm 108gr ELD-M, 636 yards. Dropped at the shot. Shot penetrated liver, and into the stomach. Got up after 10-15 seconds and slowly walked about 70 yards before a second shot was out into both lungs. Elk went down, when we walked up the head was still up, and a shot to the neck ended it. Total distance traveled after the first poor shot was about 70 yards and a couple minutes. Shooter had lots of problems finding the elk in the scope with magnification too high.

Elk- 430 yards, 223 77gr TMK. First shot was as the elk started walking, stomach into the femur- breaking femur. Elk moved about 70-80 yards and laid down with a log covering it’s whole body except it’s head. Extremely new and very excited hunter. Several shots were missed until calming down and putting one in the back of the head at 450+/- yards. About two minutes total.

2x Elk, 6XC 112gr Barnes MatchBurner, 80 yards. Through liver and and into stomach. Ran 80’ish yards and laid down. Follow up shot through both lungs and done. Less than two minutes. This was two elk, first was standing through pines, second one ran through opening after the first shot. Both had nearly identical shot location, both with the same bullets, and both laid down within 50 yards of each other.


Elk, 300 PRC 225gr ELD-M, 320 +/- yards, hit spine and dropped elk. Elk was still trying to regain its feet. Moved up to tree about 100 yards from it and a head shot ended it. Total distance travels after the spine shot was 0 feet, and elk tried to regain its footing for approximately two minutes before head shot.

Mule Deer, 300WM 190gr SMK, 284 yards IIRC. Scope catastrophically failed. 8 shots I believe- first shot was stomach. Also hit leg, hip, and two in the chest. Deer moved about 150-200 yards. Total time standing was more than 10 minutes.

I’ve watched several bull elk take poor first shots, but the shooters were skilled amd immediately followed up with lung shots. They just stood there after the first liver/stomach hits for the 2’ish seconds it took for a follow up shot/shots.

Well over 100 deer gut shot with 300 and 338 mags, with bullets ranging from Hornady 150gr soft points to Partitions, SMK’s, AMAX’s, Barnes X, TSX, and TTSX’s, and about anything else one could name. The deer shot poorly with AMAX’s tended to not travel far generally. Those shot with everything else usually resulted in an extremely long tracking job.

4 out of the last 10 game animals I’ve seen a 30cal magnum used on have been rodeos/ misses or wounding.

Juxtapose all that with somewhere around 250 game animals from antelope to bull Moose from 20 yards to 803 yards with 223’s and 77gr TMK’s. The first poor shot was right at the 200 animal mark, at 440+/- yards on a buck antelope and just scraped the bottom of the chest cavity breaking the leg. Pronghorn walked onto private land approximately 800-1,000 yards. We received permission to go get him, and a single shot from about 120 yards dropped him. The only other poor shot was the one relayed above. So two game animals out of 250, with multiple elk past 400 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

Really, then why doesn’t every elk guide out there tell their clients to bring a 223 or 6mm?

I have met and shot with guides from multiple places in the US and the world, some are quite well known- not one of them knew a thing about terminal ballistics or had more than a very surface level knowledge or ability with a rifle. The vast majority believe and still believe that there is a space of air above the lungs and below the spine “no man’s land”. They are so completely ignorant about basic anatomy that anything they say about terminal discussions should be looked at with a very jaundiced eye.

 

[Formidilosus]

With suppressors becoming more common the argument over more recoil is largely mute, so if recoil is out of the equation and comparing same projectiles and such I'm still trying to figure out how larger could ever not perform at least as well as smaller.

Because even suppressed, recoil is present. Brakes greatly reduce recoil, but they massively increase muzzle blast which seems to have about the same, or nearly the same effect on the shooter as recoil. Suppressors greatly reduce the blast, and reduce the recoil, but not to the extent of a brake.

Ft-lbs of recoil is a better to discuss this than cartridge/caliber. Given a basically practiced/trained person:

5’ish ft-lbs of recoil results in extremely good shooting. Misses or wounding is rare. Almost no flinching. This is 223 level.

10’ish Ft-lbs shows usually good shooting with a few mess ups. Flinching can happen, but is easy to train out. This is 243/6CM level.

15 ft-lbs is generally ok, but poor shots and misses are observably more common, and most have some level of flinch or anticipation. This is 6.5 CM level.

20 ft-lbs it is obvious that there is lower performance, wounding and misses are relatively frequent, and observable flinching is normal. This is 308/270/7mm-08 level.

25 ft-lbs flinching is so obvious it’s a problem. Wounding and missing is extremely common. This is 30-06, and very light 300 mag level.


30 ft-lbs very, very hunters or shooter can consistently shoot this well from varied field positions. It takes legit dedicated and focused anti-flinching practice to shoot very well.



A suppressor bring yo down about 1 to 2 levels. So a 25 Ft-lb recoil rifle is about a 14-16 ft-lb with a suppressor.

I've never felt recoil while shooting at an animal regardless, even with rifles that punished me at the range.

That’s not how your brain works. Your subconscious doesn’t give a rip what you “remember”, it is programmed to react. Whatever gets implanted during practice, is what happens during stress regardless of our memory.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

That’s not how your brain works. Your subconscious doesn’t give a rip what you “remember”, it is programmed to react. Whatever gets implanted during practice, is what happens during stress regardless of our memory.

I'm programmed to focus on the animal I guess.

As for the recoil I can't disagree with anything you wrote but none of it really disagrees with what I wrote either unless I'm missing something which is possible. A suppressed 7mm-08 for example probably performs at least as-good if not better terminally than any 6.5 assuming the velocity and projectile used are appropriate for caliber and should fall into a recoil range where inexperienced shooters shouldn't have a problem. No?

 

[Brontosaurus]

Would you feel comfortable with the same penetration on a full sized elk or moose at over 400 yards?


No judgment on killing yearlings either, they’re great eating, December calves don’t suck either.

This was way before I paid attention to bullet selection. Had the trigger on a 7mag freeze up and had to borrow a 243. I expected some kind of rodeo. But he died right where he stood so no complaints. If I remember right the bullet was in the offside hide. I was happy with the penetration. Have you read the 223 thread? Specifically the part where a moose is killed?

And yes yearlings are delicious!

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm programmed to focus on the animal I guess.

As for the recoil I can't disagree with anything you wrote but none of it really disagrees with what I wrote either unless I'm missing something which is possible. A suppressed 7mm-08 for example probably performs at least as-good if not better terminally than any 6.5 assuming the velocity and projectile used are appropriate for caliber

No. A 7mm and 6.5mm are all but identical in wound paths at like impact velocities for the most part to where no one anywhere could look at the wounds in dead animals or watch their reaction to being shot with either, and tell you which was which.

The 180gr ELD-M is very destructive in 7mm, but do you you really want more tissue destruction? Literally everyone that has killed or seen the wounds in elk created by a 77gr bullet from a 223 have stated it’s “too much”.

and should fall into a recoil range where inexperienced shooters shouldn't have a problem. No?

No. 6.5cm is really about the upper level recoil where someone can be practiced and do exceptional field shooting with. I’m speaking to large sample sizes here- not “I’ve shot 5-10 animals over 20 years”. 10ft-lbs (243win, 6cm, etc) is where most do really good shooting. A 7mm-08 suppressed with a 180gr ELD-M (for example) is a fantastically performing combo, however is above where inexperienced shooters show their limit to be.


I do not believe there is anyone that would use a 6mm such as a 243win or 6cm with a 115gr DTAC on elk and find it lacking.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

No. A 7mm and 6.5mm are all but identical in wound paths at like impact velocities for the most part to where no one anywhere could look at the wounds in dead animals or watch their reaction to being shot with either, and tell you which was which.

The 180gr ELD-M is very destructive in 7mm, but do you you really want more tissue destruction? Literally everyone that has killed or seen the wounds in elk created by a 77gr bullet from a 223 have stated it’s “too much”.




No. 6.5cm is really about the upper level recoil where someone can be practiced and do exceptional field shooting with. I’m speaking to large sample sizes here- not “I’ve shot 5-10 animals over 20 years”. 10ft-lbs (243win, 6cm, etc) is where most do really good shooting. A 7mm-08 suppressed with a 180gr ELD-M (for example) is a fantastically performing combo, however is above where inexperienced shooters show their limit to be.


I do not believe there is anyone that would use a 6mm such as a 243win or 6cm with a 115gr DTAC on elk and find it lacking.

180gr seems heavy for a 7mm-08 but my goal would be to put the animal down first, save meat (aim for lungs) second.

According to your insanely well organized break down you posted above a suppressed 7mm-08 is at least the recoil level of the 6.5cm and maybe a level below it.

To summarize what my argument would be, at recoil levels less than or equal to the 6.5cm, there's nothing optimal about the smaller calibers and at best it would be a break even so I'm not seeing the advantage of "going small" so to speak.

 

[Formidilosus]

180gr seems heavy for a 7mm-08 but my goal would be to put the animal down first, save meat (aim for lungs) second.

It is heavy for the 7mm-08, but it kills very well and has a fantastic wind bracket. I am not about going bigger than them going to a subpar bullet. The 180gr ELD-M is the overall best performing 7mm bullet on the market. If I wasn’t using that, I’d just go to a smaller cartridge/caliber.

According to your insanely well organized break down you posted above a suppressed 7mm-08 is at least the recoil level of the 6.5cm and maybe a level below it.

Correct.

To summarize what my argument would be, at recoil levels less than or equal to the 6.5cm, there's nothing optimal about the smaller calibers and at best it would be a break even so I'm not seeing the advantage of "going small" so to speak.

And I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. 6.5cm level is about the most recoil that can be shot very well across the board for practiced adult males. It is a good for sure. However, the difference that is optimum between 6.5cm and smaller is less recoil. For a comparison, the screw ups on animals is about 1 out of 25-30 for 6.5cm level recoil from what I’ve seen. Contrasted with the 1 out of 125 or so for the 223/77gr TMK. 6mm like 6cm and 243win have been around 1 out of 60-70.

Their overall highest success rates with sufficient sample sizes, for everything out to 450-500 yards has been the 223/77gr TMK. Out to 600+ yards it’s the 22-250 or 22CM with 77gr TMK or 88gr ELD-M, etc. Past that 6mm with good bullets have rained.


So yes, a 7mm-08 with good bullets suppressed is a good combo, though it is slightly above where most will do their best shooting.

 

[WRO]

This was way before I paid attention to bullet selection. Had the trigger on a 7mag freeze up and had to borrow a 243. I expected some kind of rodeo. But he died right where he stood so no complaints. If I remember right the bullet was in the offside hide. I was happy with the penetration. Have you read the 223 thread? Specifically the part where a moose is killed?

And yes yearlings are delicious!

No it’s like a million posts long and I’ve got other things to prep for.


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[mtnwrunner]

Here is a link to the 223 thread when you have time.
It's extremely educational.

Randy

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

 

[Whitey375]

Post a 30-round group with a 300 ultra and with a 223. Include all the flyers. Let us see that you do both equally well.

How about 24 round groups? One of these is a 300 Win and the other is a 6.5 Creedmoor. Both at 100 yards, 4 positions, 3 rounds from each, 2 cycles, 4 minutes per cycle. Does this mean I can shoot big guns at animals?

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[Whitey375]

I can't wait for the "I wounded 3 deer and 4 elk with a 223" posts later this year.

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[mjlimey]

I have no problem with posting what happens when things go wrong.

On the last couple of years-

Elk, 300 PRC, 212gr ELD-X, 984 yards. 14 shots with 3 hits. Once in the stomach, twice in the hips. The hunter wounded the elk right at the start, so this was trying to put it down. Rifle also malfunctioned repeatedly- trigger locked up, failure to feeds, failure to eject, etc. elk moved about 20 yards and stood there. Two of use hiked back to the truck to get another rifle, as the hunter had run out of ammo. Came back and two hits with a 6XC and 115gr DTACS at 970 yards, one breaking the “shoulder”, and elk fell over. Total time from first hit with 300 PRC to when we arrived back with the 6XC- about 48 minutes. Total time until falling dead from first shot with the 6XC- about 30 seconds. Hunter flinched horribly with 300 PRC despot muzzle break and ear protection. Also extreme problem of finding and the losing the animal in the scope due to high magnification. I turned the scope on the 6xc to 8x and would not let him turn it up- no problems with finding and keeping the elk in the scope including during recoil.


Elk, 300 PRC 225gr ELD-M, 636 yards. Flinched and missed by feet hitting another legal elk in the neck.

Elk 6cm 108gr ELD-M, 636 yards. Dropped at the shot. Shot penetrated liver, and into the stomach. Got up after 10-15 seconds and slowly walked about 70 yards before a second shot was out into both lungs. Elk went down, when we walked up the head was still up, and a shot to the neck ended it. Total distance traveled after the first poor shot was about 70 yards and a couple minutes. Shooter had lots of problems finding the elk in the scope with magnification too high.

Elk- 430 yards, 223 77gr TMK. First shot was as the elk started walking, stomach into the femur- breaking femur. Elk moved about 70-80 yards and laid down with a log covering it’s whole body except it’s head. Extremely new and very excited hunter. Several shots were missed until calming down and putting one in the back of the head at 450+/- yards. About two minutes total.

2x Elk, 6XC 112gr Barnes MatchBurner, 80 yards. Through liver and and into stomach. Ran 80’ish yards and laid down. Follow up shot through both lungs and done. Less than two minutes. This was two elk, first was standing through pines, second one ran through opening after the first shot. Both had nearly identical shot location, both with the same bullets, and both laid down within 50 yards of each other.


Elk, 300 PRC 225gr ELD-M, 320 +/- yards, hit spine and dropped elk. Elk was still trying to regain its feet. Moved up to tree about 100 yards from it and a head shot ended it. Total distance travels after the spine shot was 0 feet, and elk tried to regain its footing for approximately two minutes before head shot.

Mule Deer, 300WM 190gr SMK, 284 yards IIRC. Scope catastrophically failed. 8 shots I believe- first shot was stomach. Also hit leg, hip, and two in the chest. Deer moved about 150-200 yards. Total time standing was more than 10 minutes.

I’ve watched several bull elk take poor first shots, but the shooters were skilled amd immediately followed up with lung shots. They just stood there after the first liver/stomach hits for the 2’ish seconds it took for a follow up shot/shots.

Well over 100 deer gut shot with 300 and 338 mags, with bullets ranging from Hornady 150gr soft points to Partitions, SMK’s, AMAX’s, Barnes X, TSX, and TTSX’s, and about anything else one could name. The deer shot poorly with AMAX’s tended to not travel far generally. Those shot with everything else usually resulted in an extremely long tracking job.

4 out of the last 10 game animals I’ve seen a 30cal magnum used on have been rodeos/ misses or wounding.

Juxtapose all that with somewhere around 250 game animals from antelope to bull Moose from 20 yards to 803 yards with 223’s and 77gr TMK’s. The first poor shot was right at the 200 animal mark, at 440+/- yards on a buck antelope and just scraped the bottom of the chest cavity breaking the leg. Pronghorn walked onto private land approximately 800-1,000 yards. We received permission to go get him, and a single shot from about 120 yards dropped him. The only other poor shot was the one relayed above. So two game animals out of 250, with multiple elk past 400 yards.

Lot to be learned from here… not many admit as much. Thanks for the post