143 ELD-X blew up on the shoulder?

[TaperPin]

That's what I told him before I posted this thread, even though he's dead certain there was nothing in the flight path unless it was an anomaly Randy Johnson like situation where he tatered a bird or something.

The fact that it impacted where he was aimed was confusing to me, I would have assumed anything that would make it start to upset would have cause more deflection, but I understand there's some variability in that as well.

I can give your friend the number for an Accubond support group - he can retell the story and get a good chuckle and eye roll out of everyone. We’ve all had to get old Nosler Partition tattoos covered up, but we won’t poke too much fun at a recovering Hornady shooter . . . at first.

 

[Bluefish]

An extra page in the reg book defining the differences in bullet construction and terminal performance wouldn't be unreasonable, but the general questions I see on FB pages tell me it wouldn't do a damn bit of good either.

No way the average hunter would understand the subtleties required to use 22 cal for everything. Heck, half the people on this forum still argue it doesn’t work.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I can give your friend the number for an Accubond support group - he can retell the story and get a good chuckle and eye roll out of everyone. We’ve all had to get old Nosler Partition tattoos covered up, but we won’t poke too much fun at a recovering Hornady shooter . . . at first.

"The Bombers" I know those guys.

 

[Marbles]

Odd things can happen. Taking everything at face value it is certainly a head scratcher. Even if I pulled the trigger, I'm not sure I would take everything at face value though.

The recovered bullet looks like it hit at a decent velocity, but it certainly dod not explode or disintegrate on impact. That core and jacket alone should have penetrated more.

Very odd things can happen, I have seen someone who broke their neck falling backwards onto their mattress, and another person who barely had a scratch after falling 40 feet onto rocks. Or the guy at the Chosin that was shot between the eyes with an AK inches from his face and only had a flesh wound. I put this in the same category, there is probably something more to the story, but damned if I know based on the information I have.

There are enough stories from people who claim to have used them in this thread alone that I have to wonder. Not enough to change my use of ELD-Ms though, but enough to leave an open question. Primarily because theory must always bow to reality and when I have to start throwing out various scenarios to hold on to a viewpoint I consider that a red flag to proceed with caution.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Personally, I keep coming back to the suicidal grouse theory.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Personally, I keep coming back to the suicidal grouse theory.

Same. We have a ton of grouse.

 

[HighUintas]

@Harvey_NW , @Formidilosus , do you think it's possible that this bullet happened to have less lead in the nose for whatever reason and t made it through QC? If that were the case, maybe it would be more likely to blow.up and not penetrate.

That's just and idea, but I also lean toward it hitting something before the deer.

 

[kcm2]

As to the comment about "no telling photos" I had a witness to my two shots.

 

[Harvey_NW]

@Harvey_NW , @Formidilosus , do you think it's possible that this bullet happened to have less lead in the nose for whatever reason and t made it through QC? If that were the case, maybe it would be more likely to blow.up and not penetrate.

That's just and idea, but I also lean toward it hitting something before the deer.

I would imagine it would act similar to a varmint bullet and cause more damage on impact, similar to the picture he posted in his explanation. But varmint bullets are typically lighter for caliber and impact at much higher velocities, so maybe plausible.

I'm not saying it didn't impact something before the deer, but I find it pretty odd that the majority of "blew up on the shoulder" claims are from eld-x. Because he had pretty telling pics (to me), I started the thread for discussion. The Berger failures of not opening and penciling make sense, "blowing up on the shoulder" and not penetrating into the cavity doesn't, why so many claims? Is the eld-x just that much more popular that more people who don't understand terminal ballistics are misinterpreting? I don't know, but it's interesting.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

With the amount of people digiscoping kill shots nowadays, it seems like there should be a video out there that provides that level of evidence of a popular big game bullet failing.

 

[Formidilosus]

but I find it pretty odd that the majority of "blew up on the shoulder" claims are from eld-x.

“Bullets blowing up on the shoulder” stories have been around forever- there are dozens a year on this site alone. Berger “blow up” stories are cliché at this point. “Accua- Bombs”, SST’s- there even been multiple people swearing on their life that they’ve had Barnes TSX/TTSX’s “blow up and not penetrate the shoulder”.

Because he had pretty telling pics (to me), I started the thread for discussion.

The issue is that the stated situation and behavior of the bullet does not match. Where did all the wound cavity from that bullet go? You don’t magically frag 147gr of lead and have a slit for a wound.

The Berger failures of not opening and penciling make sense, "blowing up on the shoulder" and not penetrating into the cavity doesn't, why so many claims? Is the eld-x just that much more popular that more people who don't understand terminal ballistics are misinterpreting? I don't know, but it's interesting.

(Bolded) Absolutely. Every time there is a new bullet that becomes very popular, the stories start flooding about how “they fail”. The ELD-X is the most popular “long range” hunting bullets by volume, Hornady Precision Hunter ammo is by far the most available and popular by volume “good” factory ammunition, etc.

People do not understand animal anatomy, they have almost no understanding about fact based terminal ballistics, nor do they know how to piece together evidence in a systemic and logical fashion that leads to correct conclusions. You combine all of that with what had been pounded into people’s heads about bullets, guns, cartridges, and the result is a bunch incorrect and ludicrous “experiences”.
Humans are horrible at objective data, and the least reliable evidence are humans- and the participants involved in events are the least reliable of all. It takes a lot of practice and training for humans to have a high probability of remembering events correctly- and if your job doesn’t require that, you don’t have it.

I’ve gotten back to camps and the guy I was hunting with and killed an animal right beside me (on video) is telling the story to everyone else and it is 100% not what happened. They argue and argue that it is, then we look at the video and they stand there dumbfounded trying to reconcile what the honestly beloved happened, with what actually happened.
I’ve had dudes want to fight me because they swore the animal was facing left when it was actually facing to the right- and that the bullet blew up on the entrance. Then the video and/or blood trail showed it was opposite of what they thought and they were looking at the exit. And, others where they wouldn’t look in the the other direction for an animal that ran off after being shot because “I know how it was facing”. Etc, etc, etc.
I helped at a butcher shop for a few seasons, and worked full time for one season there. Over a thousand deer a deer came through each season, and the stories could be told for days. The amount of “failed bullet” stories was incredible. In lots of cases I was able to track the wound and find the bullet inside the deer- and they still would swear up and down- sometimes mad as hell- that “that ain’t what happened”.


There are 1 in 1 million events of course- however, with what is known about the mechanisms of how bullets work, the “it only penetrated a couple inches” in an deer/elk events just aren’t a thing.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Harvey_NW , @Formidilosus , do you think it's possible that this bullet happened to have less lead in the nose for whatever reason and t made it through QC? If that were the case, maybe it would be more likely to blow.up and not penetrate.

That's just and idea, but I also lean toward it hitting something before the deer.

Possible? Yes. Anything is. However, it still would have created a wound similar to what I posted- I.E., massive cavitation at entrance side.

 

[fwafwow]

View attachment 781965

May as well - @Billy Goat @svivian @fwafwow @Drenalin

I’m both disappointed and relieved that I missed this last night. What’s with the FNGs?

 

[mtnbound]

@Harvey_NW , @Formidilosus , do you think it's possible that this bullet happened to have less lead in the nose for whatever reason and t made it through QC? If that were the case, maybe it would be more likely to blow.up and not penetrate.

That's just and idea, but I also lean toward it hitting something before the deer.

If the bullet were defective in that manner, wouldn't it also be unstable in flight? Wouldn't it be out of balance, so to speak? Wouldn't that affect the bullet's accuracy and lead to a miss or substantial POA-POI shift?

 

[Billy Goat]

Humans are horrible at objective data, and the least reliable evidence are humans- and the participants involved in events are the least reliable of all. It takes a lot of practice and training for humans to have a high probability of remembering events correctly

This is unfortunately very true.

I hear lots of "stories" again from someone, something that I was there for. It's not uncommon for something to be different.



Problem is, it's like assholes, once you have e determined that 6 people around you are assholes, then it is likely that you are infact the asshole.
I'm trying to determine if I'm the one recreating stories in my mind, I have been able to go back to find proof I'm correct, so, so far I'm out the looney bin.
For that reason anyways.

 

[Wapiti1]

Based on what was recovered of the bullet, it is most likely that it was a squib load.

Over the years, I've removed a remarkable amount of bullets from barrels. Some factory ammunition, some, most, handloads that didn't get enough powder or any at all. Squibs are a thing.

All things being equal, that is the most plausible explanation. I've seen high speed camera studies on bullet deflection and barrier impacts. It takes more than a branch to initiate meaningful upset based on those findings. Although a small deflection can initiate tumbling, but the recovered bullet says otherwise.

Just my thoughts.

Jeremy

 

[TradLife406]

Regardless, I'm moving away from the eldx to Berger. Ive stacked up a lot of sample data with the eldx with the PRC and creed. Results have never been really super impressive.

 

[pbroski]

By the looks of the wound, a plausible explanation is that the bullet impacted the ground before ricocheting into the deer. That could happen if using a scope without a zero stop. After a long range practice session, forgetting that you have already dialed down to return zero, then doing it again by accident. That could put the zero low by up to 20moa without realizing it.

 

[Hnthrdr]

By the looks of the wound, a plausible explanation is that the bullet impacted the ground before ricocheting into the deer. That could happen if using a scope without a zero stop. After a long range practice session, forgetting that you have already dialed down to return zero, then doing it again by accident. That could put the zero low by up to 20moa without realizing it.

Did that before…. Except I forgot to dial it back. Had a coyote at 90 yards and ripped two rounds at him and he just stood there, I couldn’t fathom how he wasn’t dead, on the second shot I saw dirt kick like 10 ft behind him…

 

[KenLee]

If the bullet were defective in that manner, wouldn't it also be unstable in flight? Wouldn't it be out of balance, so to speak? Wouldn't that affect the bullet's accuracy and lead to a miss or substantial POA-POI shift?

Based on seeing severely distorted old school Core-lokts and Power Points back in the 70s and 80s, under 200 yards the tip doesn't matter nearly as much as you would think. I saw this from 308, 30-06 and 270.
The older hunters didn't pay the abused tips any attention and still made good shots on deer.