143 ELD-X blew up on the shoulder?

[Harvey_NW]

I don’t believe it. I have shot many animals at closer and farther, hitting softer and harder parts of animals with the same factory stuff. My average penetration is around 16” NOT including the many pass throughs. If I saw it in person, it would be different.

Being on the internet, I don’t trust the OP’s post. The bullet looks the same as ones I have found, in the offside hide, when I have found them. If I saw similar or plausible results in person, I wouldn’t question the post. I’ve never seen anything close to only 3”-4” (he claims) of penetration with the CM and 143’s.

You caught me, I staged an ELD-X "failure" so I could kick the hornets nest in between seasons because I'm bored

99.9% of the time I wouldn’t believe it either, in fact when he text my hunting partner and I my immediate response was "bullsh:t, send pics and I'm fairly certain I can provide an explanation". Even if he was lying, the pictures don't.

For context, I shoot 143's at 2930 out of my PRC. This is my first year using them, but 2 weeks ago my wife shot a buck at 350 ever slightly quartering to, and had mostly expected results. Caught the rear meat of the front shoulder, fist size exit center of ribcage offside, didn't go 20. I can't explain the bloodshot oval to the left on the stomach tho.

 

[Formidilosus]

Why all the doubters?

Because of the mechanics that it would take to do what is described.

@Harvey_NW


To understand what is required for that to happen, you have to say that a 143gr projectile did not, and would not have exited a squirrel. On a black tail you are talking about two inches of penetration max. So start there and digest that- a 143gr bullet somehow expanded fully inside a squirrel and yet didn’t exit?

If a 143gr bullet did in fact only penetrate 2 inches, it would not be in a near perfect expanded condition- that’s not how it works. It takes time- that’s distance of material penetrated for that to happen. It isn’t happening in 2 inches. For a 143gr ELD-X to only penetrate a couple of inches- the bullet would have fragmented totally- complete and utter pieces. Also there would be a massive surface wound- MASSIVE. The temporary stretch cavity and splash back on the entrance side is unmistakable when it happens, like this-






The OP’s pictures do not in any way show anything that happens when a bullet only penetrates a couples of inches. It looks like an elongated wound from a bullet that has already hit something…. or an exit wound.

 

[eoperator]

So the deer was shot broadside at 140yrds with 143eldx without damaging any vitals & the hunter approached it on foot and shot it again from 30 yards as it was trying to get up?

 

[Harvey_NW]

Appreciate him answering questions.

The second picture didn't render for me when I first replied earlier sorry, is that not all bloodshot lung chunks scattered throughout the broad side and off side ribs? So the white fat chunks and blood shot chunks scattered throughout the entrance side and offside rib cage are from what? If nothing penetrated the lungs or heart at all how did those get there? Maybe a Sawzall or chain saw to process the deer?

I'm not denying what your friend experienced at all, I've heard stories of ELDX failures here on Rokslide, they just never have any legitimate or "telling" post mortem photos unfortunately in what I've seen.

He said the lungs and vitals all came out intact, and the lung on the impact side had bloodshot/bruising similar to the inside of the cavity where the impact was. No chainsaw or Sawzall, just said those are either chunks of diaphragm or fat from gutting. I haven't gutted an animal in nearly a decade because I do gutless method for personal preference.

I just can't get over the fact there isn't a distinguishable hole punched in at least the impact side of that cavity from a cup and core bullet that obviously impacted something at optimal velocity to upset, when there is an impact wound in an optimal spot on the shoulder that should be easily identifiable.

 

[Cleriger]

Crazy. I shoot the same round. Never an issue

 

[Formidilosus]

I just can't get over the fact there isn't a distinguishable hole punched in at least the impact side of that cavity from a cup and core bullet that obviously impacted something at optimal velocity to upset, when there is an impact wound in an optimal spot on the shoulder that should be easily identifiable.

And that should be a clue.

Something is there besides a perfectly broadside deer taking a 143gr projectile that hit nothing in front of it- only penetrating two inches with no evidence that would be plainly visible to show that.

 

[ID_Matt]

I lean hard towards saying it hit a branch that the shooter wasn't aware of, but if he is sure there is absolutely no chance that happened then I don't have any good ideas how it's possible

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

He said the lungs and vitals all came out intact, and the lung on the impact side had bloodshot/bruising similar to the inside of the cavity where the impact was. No chainsaw or Sawzall, just said those are either chunks of diaphragm or fat from gutting. I haven't gutted an animal in nearly a decade because I do gutless method for personal preference.

I just can't get over the fact there isn't a distinguishable hole punched in at least the impact side of that cavity from a cup and core bullet that obviously impacted something at optimal velocity to upset, when there is an impact wound in an optimal spot on the shoulder that should be easily identifiable.

Yeah when I originally saw the first photo I thought that was an exit wound to be honest.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Because of the mechanics that it would take to do what is described.

@Harvey_NW


To understand what is required for that to happen, you have to say that a 143gr projectile did not, and would not have exited a squirrel. On a black tail you are talking about two inches of penetration max. So start there and digest that- a 143gr bullet somehow expanded fully inside a squirrel and yet didn’t exit?

If a 143gr bullet did in fact only penetrate 2 inches, it would not be in a near perfect expanded condition- that’s not how it works. It takes time- that’s distance of material penetrated for that to happen. It isn’t happening in 2 inches. For a 143gr ELD-X to only penetrate a couple of inches- the bullet would have fragmented totally- complete and utter pieces. Also there would be a massive surface wound- MASSIVE. The temporary stretch cavity and splash back on the entrance side is unmistakable when it happens, like this-

View attachment 781880




The OP’s pictures do not in any way show anything that happens when a bullet only penetrates a couples of inches. It looks like an elongated wound from a bullet that has already hit something…. or an exit wound.

Dude, trust me, I understand. I've learned a lot from you and others on here. I'M not SAYING anything, I'm relaying the details I got from a friends situation, and asking questions. Because I can't explain it, It's well outside the scope of performance I would expect.

 

[Harvey_NW]

So the deer was shot broadside at 140yrds with 143eldx without damaging any vitals & the hunter approached it on foot and shot it again from 30 yards as it was trying to get up?

Yes. Exactly.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I lean hard towards saying it hit a branch that the shooter wasn't aware of, but if he is sure there is absolutely no chance that happened then I don't have any good ideas how it's possible

That was the only reasonable conclusion I could fathom, but he said dead certain clear view. Literally said "maybe a bumblebee" lol.

And that should be a clue.

Something is there besides a perfectly broadside deer taking a 143gr projectile that hit nothing in front of it- only penetrating two inches with no evidence that would be plainly visible to show that.

So it HAD to have impacted something before the animal? And not be deflected off course?

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Thanks for posting, I've read several threads claiming this same thing but never one with decent photos.

One thing I've never seen asked or answered on a bullet failure thread is...if all of the details are accurate and the bullet was "defective", what exactly would that defect be?

Does a deflected ELD-X still look like the one recovered? (Which looks like a lot of recovered ELD-X's that did perform as expected).

 

[Formidilosus]

Dude, trust me, I understand. I've learned a lot from you and others on here. I'M not SAYING anything, I'm relaying the details I got from a friends situation, and asking questions. Because I can't explain it, It's well outside the scope of performance I would expect.

I’m not saying you are lying about what was relayed, or even that your friend believes he isn’t telling the truth. And this isn’t me saying bullets won’t/can’t do what is described- I posted a picture of one doing so above, and what it looks like when it happens.

I am saying, that it is almost a certainty that something else happened that was missed.

 

[ID_Matt]

That was the only reasonable conclusion I could fathom, but he said dead certain clear view. Literally said "maybe a bumblebee" lol.

@Juan_ID Shot a buck a few years ago that had a similar result. Luckily it was a follow up shot and the first one was right in the boiler room. We looked back at the video and it definitely touched a branch a few feet in front of the animal. Onside shoulder was hamburger.

 

[sickles107]

broadside shot

Per forms analysis and wound patter, looks to be a bit more so hard quarter to?

What wound patter?

Distinguishable triangle-ish pattern on permanent wound. Blood shot on the assumed direction of bullet travel.

Even if the chest cavity was truley not touched, I could beleive a hard quarter to shot and the bullet upsetting on a path along/outside the rib cage.

I would have a hard time reasoning with the idea of a bullet hitting true broadside, upsetting on hide/rib, not penetrating essential a sheet of drywall at best, and "splashing" 8 inches out, 90 degrees off original trajectory.

I have no dog in this fight, just objective opinion based on evidence provided.

 

[bergie]

To understand what is required for that to happen, you have to say that a 143gr projectile did not, and would not have exited a squirrel. On a black tail you are talking about two inches of penetration max. So start there and digest that- a 143gr bullet somehow expanded fully inside a squirrel and yet didn’t exit?

I was well on the side of 'man some crazy stuff happens' before reading most of this post. I am probably in the camp now of there was a stick (or something) that was struck that began the expansion before impacting the deer. However, I really hope you are comparing a front shoulder of a deer to a squirrel for dramatic effect.

To say that a squirrel, being 2" across, is the same medium for a bullet to pass through as the front shoulder of a deer is completely inaccurate. If we are simply using the length a bullet must pass through as the defining factor of how it performs then we can say a 2" steel plate and a deer front shoulder are also the same...come on we know thats not any more true than saying that a thin skinned, brittle boned, loosely muscled squirrel offers the same medium to a bullet as a (thicker) skinned, (heavier) boned and (more) muscled deer does. I am not saying that a deer is thick skin, heavy boned and massively muscled, but man compared to a squirrel it is.

If the whole point of the comment was for a laugh then I apologize for greatly misreading the situation. Either way I do appreciate the context of the rest of the post as I think it did change my mind.

 

[Harvey_NW]

View attachment 781879

Distinguishable triangle-ish pattern on permanent wound. Blood shot on the assumed direction of bullet travel.

Even if the chest cavity was truley not touched, I could beleive a hard quarter to shot and the bullet upsetting on a path along/outside the rib cage.

I would have a hard time reasoning with the idea of a bullet hitting true broadside, upsetting on hide/rib, not penetrating essential a sheet of drywall at best, and "splashing" 8 inches out, 90 degrees off original trajectory.

I have no dog in this fight, just objective opinion based on evidence provided.

Ah, I understand now. I thought you were referencing that there was wound patter inside the cavity. No, he said broadside. I would agree with that as well, seems the only reasonable explanation is that it likely made contact with something else he didn't see before impact. But none of it made sense, so I wanted the opinions for discussion.

 

[TaperPin]

I love this story - second hand pictures, but I want to believe they are true even without an MRI, everyone seems to be believable. The squirrel raised its head again - we all imagined it exploding like a prairie dog. The deer we keep imagining as the size of a mulie, then down to a southern Oregon Dik Dik size black tail, then back to a mulie, then back to a Dik Dik. The bullet cup we all spent too much time examining. Is that fat!?!? No, that can’t be fat - squirrel exploded on the outside. Then there’s the deer’s reaction - double back flip like it was struck with a 77gr TMK at 700 yards, then shot in the head like something out of the Sopranos.

If I had seen it first hand I’d be hesitant to use that bullet on anything, but that’s just me.

 

[grappling_hook]

Maybe we're looking at a grazing shot from a tree stand?

View attachment 781879

Distinguishable triangle-ish pattern on permanent wound. Blood shot on the assumed direction of bullet travel.

Even if the chest cavity was truley not touched, I could beleive a hard quarter to shot and the bullet upsetting on a path along/outside the rib cage.

I would have a hard time reasoning with the idea of a bullet hitting true broadside, upsetting on hide/rib, not penetrating essential a sheet of drywall at best, and "splashing" 8 inches out, 90 degrees off original trajectory.

I have no dog in this fight, just objective opinion based on evidence provided.

This looks most likely to me. We're looking at both the entry and exit, and/or part of the trajectory was in the armpit.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I love this story - second hand pictures, but I want to believe they are true even without an MRI, everyone seems to be believable. The squirrel raised its head again - we all imagined it exploding like a prairie dog. The deer we keep imagining as the size of a mulie, then down to a southern Oregon Dik Dik size black tail, then back to a mulie, then back to a Dik Dik. The bullet cup we all spent too much time examining. Is that fat!?!? No, that can’t be fat - squirrel exploded on the outside. Then there’s the deer’s reaction - double back flip like it was struck with a 77gr TMK at 700 yards, then shot in the head like something out of the Sopranos.

If I had seen it first hand I’d be hesitant to use that bullet on anything, but that’s just me.

You're drunk early tonight, but it is a Friday so you get a pass!