10 shot group

[Formidilosus]

Here’s three that I pulled randomly. Imagine shooting one of the random 5 shot groups and then adding a correction factor to try and determine what the 10 or 30 round group will be with a straight face.

 

[Jimbee]

I have pictures. Three shot groups, then added to them the following day.

 

[Jimbee]

Ongoing cold bore experiment with a tikka 270 superlite with 9" TBAC. Trying to burn up all my bullets and brass before I pull the barrel and abandon the 270 Win. For 8 days I shot 1 through 8, so target 1 is always cold bore and 8 is hot af. Usually I shoot 8 times in about 2.5 minutes.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Look at the totality over a period of time rather than a single point in time.

I can shoot many 3-shot groups over a period of time (not same range session) and get a good understanding of what the rifle will do.

Like I initially said, folks should do what works for them. Yes, there’s room for improvement.

This is very important. A quick field confirmation of 3-5 shots regularly makes a lot of sense for a lot of real world shooters and hunters.

Shooting from a robot arm, in a tunnel, and then comparing thousands of rounds of data to real world hunters and shooters is absolutely laughable.

A rifle is only as good as it’s operator. Body mechanics, being comfortable, and being confident in your equipment leads to WAY more accurate shooting than finding the “perfect” rifle. Or “perfect” amount of shots to classify what a “group” is. The gate keeping of “groups” on this site is just plain hilarious.

When I was shooting hundreds of rounds a day and teaching new shooters almost every weekend you see real world results with real people and with quite large sample sizes. Being comfortable and confident are factors 1 and 2 with accurate shooting, every time. There is absolutely nothing wrong with stopping by your range, or BLM spot, wherever you can, and string together some 3-5 shot groups. This gets you more comfortable with your setup, is a great way for quick accuracy verification, and is just plain fun. If you aren’t having fun try a new sport. Maybe robot arm shooting in a tunnel is more up your alley.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t doubt that some won’t be able to duplicate, or get close to, the factors in that table. Likely due to shooter or gear issues. As seen above with 2+ MOA 5-shot groups.

“Shooter or gear issues”? Those are from a Wiseman in a tunnel, with some the most well known match ammo. There were no “shooter” issues. Interestingly the 3 round groups from all three averaged under 1 MOA.

But a decent shooter with decent gear will be close in my experience.

Those tables are heck of a lot closer to reality for the vast majority of rifles than sub MOA ten round groups. The point is that with real rifles “x” amount of shots does not math out to a larger shot group size.

 

[ORJoe]

"Where will the bullet go next time I pull the trigger?"
Three shots tells you nice things, ten shots tells you the truth.

 

[Wrench]

I used to get twisted up in the numbers but realized that the number of contributing factors to accuracy is endless, and so far, a 1ish moa gun in the hands of any true rifleman is quite minute of dead deer to damn near 4 digits on any day.

I stopped worrying about it. I slept better, saved barrels and I still kill lots of chit.

 

[Formidilosus]

Are you really doubling down over data that includes 2 to 3+ MOA 5-shot groups?

Either the math works or it doesn’t. It doesn’t matter what the total group size is…. Or, it does as I said in my first post.


That ammo was shot in three barrels that are all match grade, 1 MOA or less per the manufacture, with ammo that is some of the most well known and highest regarded in that cartridge. It’s doesn’t matter whether you like the group size or not, the math works or it doesn’t when rifles are shot and measured. Those three I pulled randomly- I didn’t cherry pick the worst groups or guns.

 

[Lawnboi]

To go deeper we can look at how you are shooting the group as well. Are you at a bench not leaving the glass? (I’d assume this is how most here shoot groups) Or breaking position each shot? Shooting from field positions?

You can get more out of a group at a hundred than confirming zero from a bench

 

[Formidilosus]

So 2 to 3+ MOA 5-shot groups and there’s nothing wrong with your equipment or the person setting it up huh? 10-shot groups smaller than 5-shot groups (although they’re all huge) and it’s not an issue with lack of data or poor quality data? Those would be pretty big red flags to me.

If you put garbage in, you can expect garbage out. Or I guess you could blame the mATh.

So the chart only works with guns that average 3/4moa 20 round groups?

No, for anyone that’s actually shot it and not thrown out the shots they don’t like, you’re not getting realistic information with a correction factor to larger groups.

 

[Formidilosus]

Nope, not what I said in the slightest. That’s just a straw man’s argument.

Like I’ve said, that table is a statistical table. Like all things in statistics, you need an appropriate sample size.

So why not just shoot the shots since you need the sample size anyways, instead of relying on some theoretical formula?

Like all things in statistics, you need to be smart enough to put in good data. If you use inappropriately small samples and/or garbage data, you will get garbage results.

Those were the actual groups shot exactly in order as they are laid out.

If you’re shooting modern match ammo out of a modern rifle in a tunnel at 100 yards and getting 2 or 3+ MOA 5-shot groups, you’ve got an enormous issue somewhere. That’s just hot garbage. Even my junk chrome moly ar barrels shooting junk bulk ammo do better.

No they won’t, not repeatedly. “Junk ball ammo” is 3-5 MOA ammo.

When you have multiple 5-shot groups larger than 10-shot groups (and a 30 round group), you should have dummy lights blinking and alarms blasting. That’s a terrible data set.

If you remotely understand shot distribution it would be no surprise that some 5 round groups can be larger than some 10’s, and that some 10’s can be larger than some 30’s. That’s why trying to extrapolate what a group would be with more shots is silly. It “may” average out when large shot groups of averages are used, but tells you nothing about what to expect overall.

Those are the exact shots, in the exact order that they were shoot in. The only thing missing is the last 15 shots to round out a 100 shot group. That ammo is MK262 Mod 1. One of those three guns produced the smallest 100 round group that has been shot with that ammo at that place.

Funny, how when the human bullshit is removed and the results just logged, it never matches these miracle formulas.

 

[Idaho Brad]

I feel once the group exceeds 5 shots it would end up being more of a cone than a group. I’m guessing everyone shoots all their groups shots in succession and doesn’t let the gun cool between shots?


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[Idaho Brad]

Also, seems odd the consensus is to not count the “flyer”! Every time my guns stray from my advertised moa I can just count it as a flyer and throw it out?


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[RyanT26]

If I am working up loads, I will shoot 5 rounds of each. If it shows promise I will then load up 10 and shoot those.

 

[eamyrick]

Form-I dig all the information you put out. How do you explain sniper qualifications that are MOA on demand (Derrick Bartlett/SniperCraft). Luck or match grade rifles and skilled shooters capable of moa on demand?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Form-I dig all the information you put out. How do you explain sniper qualifications that are MOA on demand (Derrick Bartlett/SniperCraft). Luck or match grade rifles and skilled shooters capable of moa on demand?

Robot arms and tunnels, man.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form-I dig all the information you put out. How do you explain sniper qualifications that are MOA on demand (Derrick Bartlett/SniperCraft). Luck or match grade rifles and skilled shooters capable of moa on demand?

I am unsure of what you are asking? I have never said that rifles can’t shoot 1 MOA. I have referenced the conversion chart that was posted and how trying to extrapolate a 10 round group size from a 3 or 5 round isn’t going to give you a realistic answer.

 

[Formidilosus]

Robot arms and tunnels, man.

Weren’t you saying something about something not being data or such not long ago? And now you don’t like data?

Do you think that extrapolating a larger shot group size, from a random smaller size will result in a predictable and consistent answer?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Weren’t you saying something about something not being data or such not long ago? And now you don’t like data?

Do you think that extrapolating a larger shot group size, from a random smaller size will result in a predictable and consistent answer?

My thoughts on this particular topic are in post #29.

 

[eamyrick]

I am unsure of what you are asking? I have never said that rifles can’t shoot 1 MOA. I have referenced the conversion chart that was posted and how trying to extrapolate a 10 round group size from a 3 or 5 round isn’t going to give you a realistic answer.

I’m dull with numbers. I took your tunnel study to say that rifles are shooting 2-3 moa in controlled environments with larger group sizes.