.001, .003, .006 Arrows Technically Why?

[Shootinsurveyor]

I figure with all the time and money invested in all the other stuff I have for hunting the cost difference for .001 really isn't that much of a difference and possibly could alleviate some trouble spots with tuning.

 

[5MilesBack]

In your pipe analogy, does it matter if they both have the same size head on the end of the pipe?

Flesh has a different consistency than solid ground, but sure.......a 1 1/4" cut opening is still a 1 1/4" cut opening whether the arrow attached to it is .300" or .242". So the opening is at least 4 times the size of the arrow shaft.

 

[GotDraw?]

In your pipe analogy, does it matter if they both have the same size head on the end of the pipe?

I have thought about it and it's a valid point, but my goals are two fold:

1) Wind drift- thinner arrow shaft has less surface area so should be slightly less affected by wind drift
2) Penetration- I have to believe thinner diameter helps, even if the ferrule is larger. I say this because if you split a bone that wants to close back on the arrow shaft then a thinner shaft is better. Also less surface area to create drag as it passes through hide, muscle, organs, etc.

On Elk, Moose, and large animals, the single most important penetration predictor I've found is having a cut-on-contact broadhead that is ultra sharp. That format will give you the most penetration. Steel needs to be top quality so the tip does not curl if it hits bone, if that happens then penetration is over. If you use a three bladed broadhead, those are not cut on contact and you immediately lose tremendous energy just trying to push it through the hide. Yes, they work, but not for me on longer shots or thick hided game. Same with expandables, they lose a LOT of energy expanding and their steel sucks. Ok for whitetail, but that's it (for me).

I shot a large whitetail buck this past weekend at 51 yds with a brand new triple blade expandable with trocar point. Double lung, but arrow hit opposite shoulder and no pass through. I don't waste my Iron Wills on 175 lb whitetail. Expandable got it done. That said, if the broadhead was an Iron Will I'm sure there would have been a pass through.

JL

 

[N2TRKYS]

The thin arrow crazy is a solution to a problem that probably doesn’t exist. However, logic doesn’t sale arrows.

 

[Brendan]

Perhaps--- but a few years back I double lung/pass through'd a 1500lb Yukon bull twice. First time at 40yds and second time at 30. The 30 yd pass through then hit a 2" diameter sapling trunk 10ft on the other side of the bull and completely split it in half. Draw weight was only 55lbs at the time.

Yes, micro diameter shafts are a bit of PITA, but you can't argue that success. It's easier to drive a 1/2" diameter rod into the ground vs a 10" diameter pipe. Splitting hairs, but micro diameter shaft concentrates the mass into smaller area to punch through animals and has less diameter to create friction.

Bottom line is they work really well for me.

JL

Confidence in your setup matters - so use what works for you.

But, I don't think your results would have been any different whatsoever with a 5mm shaft as compared to a 4mm shaft. Add me to the list of people who don't use micro diameter arrows anymore. I think the penetration benefit is usually way overstated.

My biggest reason is outserts suck. Haven't found a good one yet. Beyond that - haven't found a lighted nock that works at all on a micro shaft. So it's not the arrow per se, it's the components....

 

[Billy Goat]

Confidence in your setup matters - so use what works for you.

But, I don't think your results would have been any different whatsoever with a 5mm shaft as compared to a 4mm shaft. Add me to the list of people who don't use micro diameter arrows anymore. I think the penetration benefit is usually way overstated.

My biggest reason is outserts suck. Haven't found a good one yet. Beyond that - haven't found a lighted nock that works at all on a micro shaft. So it's not the arrow per se, it's the components....

This is well worded.

I'll just say why complicate it. Shoot something smaller than your broadhead ferrule. Don't matter if it's .002 or .02 smaller, as long as it isn't bigger.

It's been easy for me to build arrows with inserts rather than outserts or half-outs.

 

[GotDraw?]

Confidence in your setup matters - so use what works for you.

But, I don't think your results would have been any different whatsoever with a 5mm shaft as compared to a 4mm shaft. Add me to the list of people who don't use micro diameter arrows anymore. I think the penetration benefit is usually way overstated.

My biggest reason is outserts

@Brendan -

Firenock lighted nocks are amazing. They have a model that fits Victory VAP arrows perfectly, the nocks are very high quality, user replaceable batteries and they light EVERY time. No plunger or anything mechanical to deal with, they have a micro circuit switch that detects acceleration. A bit of a PITA to initially install, but after that, you can change the batteries yourself, you can swap out the nock to a different color. You can also install batteries that last a super long time, or ones that make the LED bulb very bright. NOT cheap, but they have never let me down

Outserts- I am going to switch to the Iron Will HIT system for Elk. I have great faith in @Bill V 's engineering. HIT's hardened steel outer collar and separate hardened steel threaded insert will make a very rugged system. I will have to switch over to the Deep Six style Iron Will broadheads but that's ok with me.

I hear you barkin' on the question of penetration, I can only tell you that my real world penetration experience with victory VAPs combined with Iron Will broadheads has been amazing.

Best,

JL

 

[Brendan]

@Brendan -

Firenock lighted nocks are amazing. They have a model that fits Victory VAP arrows perfectly, the nocks are very high quality, user replaceable batteries and they light EVERY time. No plunger or anything mechanical to deal with, they have a micro circuit switch that detects acceleration. A bit of a PITA to initially install, but after that, you can change the batteries yourself, you can swap out the nock to a different color. You can also install batteries that last a super long time, or ones that make the LED bulb very bright. NOT cheap, but they have never let me down

Outserts- I am going to switch to the Iron Will HIT system for Elk. I have great faith in @Bill V 's engineering. HIT's hardened steel outer collar and separate hardened steel threaded insert will make a very rugged system. I will have to switch over to the Deep Six style Iron Will broadheads but that's ok with me.

I hear you barkin' on the question of penetration, I can only tell you that my real world penetration experience with victory VAPs combined with Iron Will broadheads has been amazing.

I don't disagree Firenock are great quality, I've used them before. It's just there isn't enough meat in the Nock when you get to 4mm. I've put a brand new one in and had it SHATTER on the very first shot out of my bow with a brand new nock. Repeated the test and had it happen again. That's a 29" draw, 72#, Arrow weight near 500 grains. Others have documented issue with Nock flex and resulting inconsistency in arrow flight and arrow groups.

If I were to go 4mm, it would be using Iron Will Deep 6 HIT as well, and Iron Will Broadheads, and an Iron Will Impact Collar.

With that said, I think the benefits are mostly theoretical, with some actual in practice downsides.

Penetration is a very subjective thing - I have never in my life had a penetration issue with any arrow or any broadhead if I haven't hit heavy bone. Most of the time, I'm looking for the arrow in the dirt or the brush behind the animal. So again, I don't think you can put that on the micro diameter arrow.

 

[GotDraw?]

I don't disagree Firenock are great quality, I've used them before. It's just there isn't enough meat in the Nock when you get to 4mm. I've put a brand new one in and had it SHATTER on the very first shot out of my bow with a brand new nock. Repeated the test and had it happen again. That's a 29" draw, 72#, Arrow weight near 500 grains. Others have documented issue with Nock flex and resulting inconsistency in arrow flight and arrow groups.

If I were to go 4mm, it would be using Iron Will Deep 6 HIT as well, and Iron Will Broadheads, and an Iron Will Impact Collar.

With that said, I think the benefits are mostly theoretical, with some actual in practice downsides.

Penetration is a very subjective thing - I have never in my life had a penetration issue with any arrow or any broadhead if I haven't hit heavy bone. Most of the time, I'm looking for the arrow in the dirt or the brush behind the animal. So again, I don't think you can put that on the micro diameter arrow.

@Brendan -
We're on the same page, my challenge is that my draw length is shorter than yours and your draw weight at 72# is 30% higher than mine at 55# so I am looking for every advantage. Firenocks are great, I hear your concern that the walls are thin on a 4mm arrow. They do work great for me at my draw weight and I'll keep your findings in mind if I get close to your draw weight.

Have a great Thanksgiving!
JL

 

[wildernessmaster]

here's the funny thing... we're all fixed on the .001 or .003...

Put a wrap on your arrow and you create couple thousandths ridge on your arrow. No one questions that...?

Agree w/earlier post-- It would be very insightful for someone to set up a hooter shooter and test .001 vs .006 arrow shafts and check the dispersion for those shot groups for several dozen shots each. Indoors, no wind.

JL

Amen brother...

I wasn't going to throw that variable into my argument, but considered it. Not just wraps... try all these:
1. Tip to Insert edges; insert to shaft edges
2. Wraps
3. The variable glue thickness of the vanes on a shaft
4. nock to shaft edges
5. Various size nock protrusions...

When you look at those variables and "consistencies" the tolerances are astronomically larger than .001 -> .006. Hell in some cases you can visibly see and tell that some of those affect arrows.

 

[Billy Goat]

It's because of those variables that you start as straight as you can. Square the ends of your shaft. Weight each component and match them to lighter or heavier shafts. It's a matter of removing variables. Why compound them?

Not saying that you need to do it, just depends on what your end goals are, but if you have a series of tolerances they all add up. It's to your benefit to start with the tightest tolerances you can.

 

[wapitibob]

The tolerance stack between the shaft id and insert, Insert id and ferrule od is more than .005. There is no way to accurately hold concentricity on all those parts. Screw on a long broadhead and it's easy to see why they flop around. If you were starting fresh there's no way you'd mfg components to go together the way the currently do. The only thing even remotely holding the assy reasonably straight is face contact.