WY Corner crossing update

[Billinsd]

Being a land surveyor, i see a lot of opportunities for land surveyors, both private and government, to help everyone comply with the spirit of this ruling.

The case-by-case implementation of this ruling will be tricky, and I would caution non surveyors about deciding whether a corner monument is valid.

Yeah, I’m a registered civil engineer in California and there should only be ONE corner monument at a given corner. Make sure you are looking at a monument and not some tie in points. What I’ll do is use ONX for rough orientation and look for the corner monument near where my ONX shows the corner tip. The tricky thing is not to trespass looking for the corner monument, considering that tip is surrounded by private property! If I find any monument where the ONX shows the tip, I will call it good. That’s plenty good due diligence. I’m not going to get maps and records and actually verify the monument with records. I’m not going to build something on that monument. There should only be ONE corner monument at any given property corner.
Bill

 

[Billinsd]

Question for you… How much does a survey typically cost?

I’m in San Diego and a licensed land surveyor would charge you probably $300 an hour and his staff less. I would guess it would cost a grand or a few grand in San Diego. Other places probably less than a grand? Depends how far they have to drive to get to the monument. It would be over kill, UNLESS the landowners are real A holes, or the monument is difficult to find, maybe buried, or gone and you need an iron clad, defendable defense, signed papers from a licensed surveyor, which is probably necessary in some places. This would probably cost $5 grand in San Diego, probably a fraction in other places. I’ll offer to help people find corner monuments for free!!! Tell me where to meet you and I’ll find the monument! : ) However, I won’t be signing and stamping anything. Besides, I’m only registered in California. I’ve already told everyone how to do it. Bill

 

[Billinsd]

Here is information for California Monuments, which are probabably similar to other states. Bill

https://www.californiasurveyors.org/assets/MonumentPreservation/MonCon%20Brochure.pdf

 

[mtnbiker208]

so, i saw that this is legal in 6 states, idaho and montana where not inclucded. anyone know why?

 

[nodakian]

Question for you… How much does a survey typically cost?

Costs vary widely depending on region, specific project location, local wage rates, government jurisdiction, age and pedigree of corners, availability of records for and quality of prior surveys, and more.

Other than in-town lot surveys, any survey I do starts around $1000. A 2-man field crew can easily cost $2000 per day plus materials, mileage, per diem, and lodging. Depending on the situation, office research, analysis, document and map production, client management, etc. can cost more than the field work.

 

[xebadir]

so, i saw that this is legal in 6 states, idaho and montana where not inclucded. anyone know why?

Decision from the 10th circuit and hence is law only in those states. MT and ID are in the 9th circuit jurisdiction. Would require either a parallel case in the 9th where they chose to follow/establish precedent or a ruling from the Supreme Court (that would apply to all states). Doubtful for the latter to occur as the SC is unlikely to find this of sufficient importance to hear the case.

 

[3forks]

Costs vary widely depending on region, specific project location, local wage rates, government jurisdiction, age and pedigree of corners, availability of records for and quality of prior surveys, and more.

Other than in-town lot surveys, any survey I do starts around $1000. A 2-man field crew can easily cost $2000 per day plus materials, mileage, per diem, and lodging. Depending on the situation, office research, analysis, document and map production, client management, etc. can cost more than the field work.

Thanks for the info!

 

[MuleyFever]

Being a land surveyor, i see a lot of opportunities for land surveyors, both private and government, to help everyone comply with the spirit of this ruling.

The case-by-case implementation of this ruling will be tricky, and I would caution non surveyors about deciding whether a corner monument is valid. Just because you see an aluminum or brass cap or a stone, that doesn't mean you are seeing the true property corner. Even as a licensed surveyor, I very often need to do some homework and field survey to determine whether a monument marks the true corner. For instance, I am working on two projects right now that have double corners, and half of the brass cap monuments are not the true corners.

I am very much in favor of the ruling. It is a step in the right direction, in my opinion. Just be careful out there, and happy hunting.

The thing is they would have to prove you trespassed to issue a ticket. So if the corner isnt well defined they would have to pay for the land to be surveyed just to prosecute. I dont think many will go through the trouble.

I also was thinking about the fence issue. Even a trespasser can sue a landowner if they get hurt on the property due to a hazard on the premises. If a landowner had a fence that was blocking access to public land could that be considered a hazard?

This whole thing opened a big can of worms.

 

[kwackkillncrew]

Question for you… How much does a survey typically cost?

Depends on the size of the lot and when the corners were set, possibly even who did the original survey.

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[3forks]

The thing is they would have to prove you trespassed to issue a ticket. So if the corner isnt well defined they would have to pay for the land to be surveyed just to prosecute. I dont think many will go through the trouble.

I also was thinking about the fence issue. Even a trespasser can sue a landowner if they get hurt on the property due to a hazard on the premises. If a landowner had a fence that was blocking access to public land could that be considered a hazard?

This whole thing opened a big can of worms.

I wondered about this, too.

I asked about survey costs on monuments because if someone was really interested in staying out of trouble and had a particular place they wanted to hunt, the cost of a survey could seems like a way to mitigate legal issues (unless there’s a particular issue with a private party ordering a survey for state owned land and a private land owner’s property with no participation from either the state or land owner).

I’m sure groups like RMEF would have no interest in offsetting the costs of surveys on corners that would allow the public to access large amounts of previously inaccessible ground. But, it would also seem like large groups like the RMEF could look at paying for surveys that open opportunity for hunters as opposed to spending millions on properties for the same purpose. But again, I’m sure groups like RMEF don’t want to irritate potential large private property owners/donors by doing this, but maybe smaller groups like the TRCP or BHA would.

 

[wytx]

The thing is they would have to prove you trespassed to issue a ticket. So if the corner isnt well defined they would have to pay for the land to be surveyed just to prosecute. I dont think many will go through the trouble.

I also was thinking about the fence issue. Even a trespasser can sue a landowner if they get hurt on the property due to a hazard on the premises. If a landowner had a fence that was blocking access to public land could that be considered a hazard?

This whole thing opened a big can of worms.

Pretty sure Wyoming has a law that addresses recreation on private property and the liability LO have for injuries, they have none.

https://www.americanwhitewater.org/resources/repository/Wyoming_Recreational_Use_Statute.htm

 

[Billinsd]

This whole thing opened a big can of worms.

it opened Pandora’s box!

 

[realunlucky]

it opened Pandora’s box!

Really because the ruling simply upheld what was already the law

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[Billinsd]

I asked about survey costs on monuments because if someone was really interested in staying out of trouble and had a particular place they wanted to hunt, the cost of a survey could seems like a way to mitigate legal issues (unless there’s a particular issue with a private party ordering a survey for state owned land and a private land owner’s property with no participation from either the state or land owner).

There is your answer. BLM owns most of these corner pieces. BLM will have survey maps and records. They have surveyors and survey departments. Have BLM identify, uncover, and/or replace corner monuments. Get coordinates from BLM of the corner monuments. Have BHA, RMEF push BLM to do this! When I find some corners I want to hunt, I will call the local BLM and ask for the coordinates myself and load them as waypoints. Bill