WY Corner crossing update

[mountainman406]

What a great day for public land hunters, I'm excited to see this come to fruition here in MT. Years and years of watching animals on checkerboard public land and ranchers that claim ownership over that public property are coming to an end!

 

[S.Clancy]

Just my opinion, but I think if a guy carefully crossed, no need for a ladder.

Like I said above, I don't see a county attorney wanting to touch one of these cases with a 10' pole. Now if a guy is missing the corner by a bunch, at the wrong corner, etc—you'll definitely be cited and prosecuted.

Yea, even if you were cited I'm guessing any judge would look at the WY court and now the 10th decision and tear the attorney a new one.

 

[Mish-pop]

Yea, even if you were cited I'm guessing any judge would look at the WY court and now the 10th decision and tear the attorney a new one.

I really hope that would be the case and that most get dismissed quickly unless there is sufficient evidence and the hunter was not even trying to find the corner.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

I would agree with the above. Meaning, I would zoom in with OnX with tracking on to show my intent in case something did happen.

 

[Dos Perros]

I would agree with the above. Meaning, I would zoom in with OnX with tracking on to show my intent in case something did happen.

My opinion, but using the tracking feature in OnX only increases your risk. It's up to the prosecution to prove you did the wrong thing, not up to you to prove you didn't. If you miss an unmarked corner by a few feet your OnX track would be used as evidence against you. But, you could turn on the tracker as you approach a corner, then turn it off as you get close, then turn it back on again as you are through. That would demonstrate your intent without providing evidence that you missed a corner by a few feet.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

Fair point.

 

[S.Clancy]

My opinion, but using the tracking feature in OnX only increases your risk. It's up to the prosecution to prove you did the wrong thing, not up to you to prove you didn't. If you miss an unmarked corner by a few feet your OnX track would be used as evidence against you. But, you could turn on the tracker as you approach a corner, then turn it off as you get close, then turn it back on again as you are through. That would demonstrate your intent without providing evidence that you missed a corner by a few feet.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Z Barebow]

Yea, even if you were cited I'm guessing any judge would look at the WY court and now the 10th decision and tear the attorney a new one.

My suspicion is any greenhorn/rookie attorney would love to represent a hunter accused of corner crossing in a non 10th Circuit state.

 

[taskswap]

My opinion, but using the tracking feature in OnX only increases your risk. It's up to the prosecution to prove you did the wrong thing, not up to you to prove you didn't. If you miss an unmarked corner by a few feet your OnX track would be used as evidence against you. But, you could turn on the tracker as you approach a corner, then turn it off as you get close, then turn it back on again as you are through. That would demonstrate your intent without providing evidence that you missed a corner by a few feet.

I agree, but until this is more firmly settled I wouldn't rely on any GPS-related "proof points" at all. Typical GPS accuracy is anywhere from 5-30' horizontally and that's only if it's been going long enough to get enough data points to average together. That error alone could be the difference between "ok" and "trespassing." It also assumes the boundaries in the GPS are accurate, and as much as OnX and others work on this (to their credit) they aren't 100%. The burden is on YOU to NOT trespass, so it's not a defense to say the GPS was wrong.

But as others said, the "burden of proof" is on the plaintiff/prosecutor. Let THEM show that their boundaries are accurate, and prove that you were on the wrong side. Until then, given how this original case landed, I'd personally just take a photo of the ladder (or whatever) used in the crossing.

 

[jpmulk]

The only way to clearly with zero doubt prove you are crossing in the right spot is if you find a corner property marker. Any GPS or tracker is not reliable enough to prove the standards set by the 10th circuit from what I understand. Comes down to how nitpicky landowners are going to be. For a bit, some landowners will be a pain about this. Eventually, it will become the new normal and I think most landowners will relax.

Hoping it comes to Montana soon!

 

[TxLite]

I'd personally just take a photo of the ladder (or whatever) used in the crossing.

Does climbing a fence at the corner count as trespassing? There are some locations I would hate to have to bring an a-frame ladder to

 

[Mish-pop]

Does climbing a fence at the corner count as trespassing? There are some locations I would hate to have to bring an a-frame ladder to

I wonder if that would get tricky because the landowner could say you touched their property and might try and cite for damages

 

[Dos Perros]

Does climbing a fence at the corner count as trespassing? There are some locations I would hate to have to bring an a-frame ladder to

I hope someone sincerely answers your question, but have you heard of Domanique Dawes? She would never climb a fence.

 

[TxLite]

I wonder if that would get tricky because the landowner could say you touched their property and might try and cite for damages

This is my concern as well assuming they own the fence

I hope someone sincerely answers your question, but have you heard of Domanique Dawes? She would never climb a fence.

This was my plan C if the ladder and climbing don’t work out.

 

[taskswap]

Does climbing a fence at the corner count as trespassing? There are some locations I would hate to have to bring an a-frame ladder to

The original folks who did this did exactly that - they used a ladder. Part of their defense was that they never actually made physical contact with the land underneath. They crossed in the air. And land-ownership does not confer ownership rights to the air above it.

Federal appeals court sides with corner-crossing hunters in Wyoming dispute

A three-judge panel upheld a lower court’s ruling.

montanafreepress.org

“In most cases it is not evident where a property corner is,” he wrote. “Commercial GPS software is only accurate to within several yards.”

The location of the corners at issue in the Elk Mountain case were marked with brass cap markers installed long ago by land surveyors. Similarly, the fact that the hunters did not step foot on Eshelman’s property was also undisputed. The Missouri hunters went so far as to construct a special ladder for their 2021 hunt to ensure they touched only public sections of land.

These hunters weren't stumbling around drunk blasting away at rabbits on a fence line for fun. They very carefully and deliberately planned their crossing in such a way as to make every effort to avoid trespassing. IANAL but I would personally suggest that anybody else doing so take the same precautions for a little while. There is "the law" and then there is "case law" (precedent). The latter is more impactful long term, but we've a ways to go to get there.

 

[TxLite]

The original folks who did this did exactly that - they used a ladder. Part of their defense was that they never actually made physical contact with the land underneath. They crossed in the air. And land-ownership does not confer ownership rights to the air above it.

I’m not planning to touch the physical land underneath. Climb the fence at the corner, step over the corner, climb down. Public land to public land. No ladder involved.

My question is essentially- is it legal to touch the fence if you don’t touch their ground and don’t cause damage to the fence?

 

[kwackkillncrew]

if their fence is on their property i dont think you can touch it or use it to get over the corner. you would have to prove that the fence was encroaching on the public property to be able to use it and even then sometimes fences lines are the property lines depending on the state. Or you would just need a bigger ladder. Unless there is an actual monument in the ground (preferably one that has a actual cap on it with corner information and not just a rebar) i think you would be looking for trouble. even if its legal, land owners are probably going to make it a pain in the ass. And good luck getting any easement around the corner so landowners cant put up a 15' tall fence a few yards down all their property lines from the corner.

 

[taskswap]

I’m not planning to touch the physical land underneath. Climb the fence at the corner, step over the corner, climb down. Public land to public land. No ladder involved.

My question is essentially- is it legal to touch the fence if you don’t touch their ground and don’t cause damage to the fence?

I do not believe so, although it depends on the fence and who put it there. But generally, fences are not installed precisely on property lines such somebody is out there with a ruler getting 2" of the post exactly on either side of the line. Fences are almost always installed by the landowner on their side (even if just barely) of the line, or at least where the line is understood to be. The fence itself is their property, and you can't just go climbing on it any more than you can spray paint it purple. It's just asking for them to add trouble to your case like saying you loosened it and they had to repair it on top of everything else.