Would you buy this scope?

I'm late to the party on commenting. Still trying to catch up on the thread (I'm around page 140 by now).

I would buy one as soon as they are available (assuming I catch them in stock) possibly two. If I liked them enough, I would consider a third. However, I am very interested in the 2-8 with a similar reticle that was discussed pages back.
 
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Yes to all of this. Those opinions are likely shaped by experience. If you need further convincing:

Most of you are motorist; all motorists know the experience of meeting opposite traffic in the dark and not seeing much beyond the other vehicle's headlights.
In the car, the experience is more acute than with an overly illuminated scope reticle, but it's the same mechanism for the eye.

Considering how knowledgable engineers needs to be in order to build a functional scope, I am sometimes baffled at how little thought is given to the shooters biological limitations; clearly they understand optics!

Your sharp vision is created by the fovea, this is only ø1,5-2mm of your eye and contains 150000-200000 light sensitive receptors. The central-most part of this in only ø 0,15-0,35mm, it contains only cones (no rods/no nightvision) and only about 1000* of these creates the image that your brain will convert to a trigger-reflex. An olympic level shooter can discern about a 2mm shift (0,08") at 50 meters in the sight picture or 4mm/100*.

It's the same 1000 receptors used for every shot. These receptors are light sensitive and have limited stamina (wash out). (All of you have at some time done some sort of parlor-trick illusion image thingie, so you have firsthand experience on how your vision can be manipulated, have after images or seeing movement that isn't there. etc etc

So at least from my design perspective this means:
Yes, an illuminated dot makes sense. There are no rods where the eye creates the image for a trigger reflex.

No, excessive lightning is not good. Why do you want to fight against the rod receptors and degrade image quality? You just spent all that money on lenses with >90% light transmission (in a certain wavelenght) and now you will not let the eye use all of that light?

No, tiny aiming dots makes no sense, they are marginal for the eye. A dot large enough to be easily interpreted/easily converted to a trigger reflex makes sense. I went with "half a bullet diameter every side" which gives the HUNTER the impression of placing the bullet exactly on the dot and it gives the EYE a comfortably sized reference to work with.


Of course there might be errors is my reasoning, but the above was my design decisions and it appears that my desired end-result is mirrored in the user experience.

(*Ways of the rifle 2009 - Buhlmann, Reinkemeier, Eckhardt, Murray, Bindra. Page 200)

@Formidilosus love seeing the reticle images. You might as well post a picture at EVERY magnification possible, it is only a matter of time before someone requests it...
Like most everything else, there’s room in the middle. A tiny illuminated dot, like in the Maven , on one extreme, is not enough, at least not for my uses. It’s just too damn small to be of much use (not to mention the bleeding effect when turned up). If I need illumination, it’s probably because I am at last light, and using a lower power because of closer ranges. I’m not gonna be shooting at long range at last light where I might need magnification cranked up and making the dot bigger. At the same time I don’t like the entire reticle lit up either for the reason stated above. To me, ideal is something like the illuminated nightforce models where just the center cross is lit up. It’s enough to be usable at low power, and yet not too much to wash out the background. Maybe I don’t see well enough or have some astigmatism, but a super small illuminated dot just doesn’t work, despite any theoretical or academic reasoning.
 
:)

I know why it does ... for me.

I'm just aware there are a bunch of people in this thread who haven't participated in the Q&A for Minox ZP5 5-25x56mm THLR scope thread - or possibly who haven't even read it - and thought they might benefit from @Bluumoon's observations ...

Sitting here looking at an East facing canyon wall, 45 min after sunset, MInox is impressive..

To the point of what I immediately noticed last night…. The bold reticle seems like it lends its self to snap shooting in a way that I haven’t seen before. The finer points I’m just now getting to look at.

Your eye doesn’t have to find fine cross hairs or a dot, almost no conscious focus to put target in center. What has been much mentioned, but easier to see is what reticles really being designed for FFP do. 45 min after sunset and a deer size target out to 150-200 yards could be acquired very quickly w enough precision to do the job w just bold reticles.

I need to reread @THLR’s explanation of rods/cones and processing speed, brighter minds can and have explained it.

50 minutes past sunset and things way too far to be reasonable with the lit center dot are w in reach.
 
Sitting here looking at an East facing canyon wall, 45 min after sunset, MInox is impressive..

To the point of what I immediately noticed last night…. The bold reticle seems like it lends its self to snap shooting in a way that I haven’t seen before. The finer points I’m just now getting to look at.

Your eye doesn’t have to find fine cross hairs or a dot, almost no conscious focus to put target in center. What has been much mentioned, but easier to see is what reticles really being designed for FFP do. 45 min after sunset and a deer size target out to 150-200 yards could be acquired very quickly w enough precision to do the job w just bold reticles.

I need to reread @THLR’s explanation of rods/cones and processing speed, brighter minds can and have explained it.

50 minutes past sunset and things way too far to be reasonable with the lit center dot are w in reach.
The reticle tells my brain what my eye needs to look at?????
 
I never realized how intuitive MOA was before now!

And so easy to memorize.

Folks: we've been doing it wrong the whole time.

View attachment 1012242

MOA is gaaaayyyyy!

c5c11171db3f81fd894dbf6a91f28fcd.jpg



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Here’s the question I have. I’m looking for a scope that can be banged around and brought on long trips, as lightweight as reasonably possible (around 20ish ounces), with a mag range that’s good for everything from close in timber hunting to shooting 500 yards in the alpine. I’m split between waiting on this scope, getting a SWFA 3-9, getting another credo 2.5-10, or getting a 2-12 nx6. Reasons Ive come up with to buy this scope specifically:

Intuitively built reticle specifically for hunting. No trees, no unnecessary illumination.

Value for money, I mean both form and Avery have both said this probably one of the best value for money scopes available.

Built specifically to meet the demands of reliability by Rokslide and Form. I mean still in testing but if as long as it meets expectations.

It’s not exactly lightweight but 25 ounces is close enough that I’m not worked up about it.

The only thing that makes me not so sure is the mag range. The deposit isn’t an issue, honestly I’d be fine paying full price. I understand the scopes I listed are all slightly different, but most are using a mag range I prefer, as well as having a reputation for being pretty durable. Is anyone else in this boat? Can you guys with more hunting and shooting experience weigh in? Maybe I should just wait and see if S2H makes a 2-8.
 
Here’s the question I have. I’m looking for a scope that can be banged around and brought on long trips, as lightweight as reasonably possible (around 20ish ounces), with a mag range that’s good for everything from close in timber hunting to shooting 500 yards in the alpine. I’m split between waiting on this scope, getting a SWFA 3-9, getting another credo 2.5-10, or getting a 2-12 nx6. Reasons Ive come up with to buy this scope specifically:

Intuitively built reticle specifically for hunting. No trees, no unnecessary illumination.

Value for money, I mean both form and Avery have both said this probably one of the best value for money scopes available.

Built specifically to meet the demands of reliability by Rokslide and Form. I mean still in testing but if as long as it meets expectations.

It’s not exactly lightweight but 25 ounces is close enough that I’m not worked up about it.

The only thing that makes me not so sure is the mag range. The deposit isn’t an issue, honestly I’d be fine paying full price. I understand the scopes I listed are all slightly different, but most are using a mag range I prefer, as well as having a reputation for being pretty durable. Is anyone else in this boat? Can you guys with more hunting and shooting experience weigh in? Maybe I should just wait and see if S2H makes a 2-8.

The SWFA 3-9x is a great scope for what you want. Yes, maybe the S2H scope will be “better”, but for your specific uses, I would get the 3-9x and then later get another scope if you want. The SWFA will sell easily enough.
 
Here’s the question I have. I’m looking for a scope that can be banged around and brought on long trips, as lightweight as reasonably possible (around 20ish ounces), with a mag range that’s good for everything from close in timber hunting to shooting 500 yards in the alpine. I’m split between waiting on this scope, getting a SWFA 3-9, getting another credo 2.5-10, or getting a 2-12 nx6. Reasons Ive come up with to buy this scope specifically:

Intuitively built reticle specifically for hunting. No trees, no unnecessary illumination.

Value for money, I mean both form and Avery have both said this probably one of the best value for money scopes available.

Built specifically to meet the demands of reliability by Rokslide and Form. I mean still in testing but if as long as it meets expectations.

It’s not exactly lightweight but 25 ounces is close enough that I’m not worked up about it.

The only thing that makes me not so sure is the mag range. The deposit isn’t an issue, honestly I’d be fine paying full price. I understand the scopes I listed are all slightly different, but most are using a mag range I prefer, as well as having a reputation for being pretty durable. Is anyone else in this boat? Can you guys with more hunting and shooting experience weigh in? Maybe I should just wait and see if S2H makes a 2-8.
You need the SWFA 3-9x. It's perfect for your use case, and a great value.
 
Has anyone else not been able to fall asleep thinking about this scope?!

Form, Ryan and others I know another thanks is old news, but thanks very much. I know your personal mission to have better equipment is a self serving need and yet beneficial for all of us. As you’re immersed in validation I hope you realize what an amazing accomplishment this is beyond the scope itself….

I’ve saved for one no matter the deposit, validation to your standards “is the way” regardless of delivery timeline. Imo.

I’m additionally down for 2 minimum possibly 3 on the 2-8 ish version.

If you need any help, say loading clips, waterproofing your worn out trackers, etc I’ll find a sitter and I can be there in 32 hours !
 
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