Workout Routine: Am I on the right track?

[pete]

I am just curious, what is your guys' concern with too much cardio? Are you worried about losing strength? Muscle mass?

Last year I was training for a 50 mile trail ultra, running about 40-55 miles per week, and doing some Insanity and mountain biking along with it. When I climbed Mt. Rainier in the summer, I never felt better. Same with a backpack archery deer hunt I did. I spent a lot of the winter and spring doing Insanity, then Insanity and biking, then running, Insanity and biking. I didn't feel like I was lacking in strength or cardio at all.

Just curious.

For me, it was both. I decided that I wanted to break the 200 lb barrier, so I was trying to gain mass. Once I did that, I wanted to lose a few pounds of excess weight, but found I had a hard time hitting some of my lifts if I was doing a bunch of cardio too. Now I'm trying to figure out how to add the cardio back in without making my knees hate me.

To the OP: This reminded me that it's important to set very defined, and achievable, goals. Don't just say I want to add mass/get stronger/lose excess weight. Say I want to get 5 lb heavier/add 50 lb to my squat/lose 2 inches off my waist. And I mean "say" literally, tell someone what you're trying to do, being held accountable makes a difference.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Poser,

Okay. That is directly supported by the article I linked in post #14.

An important consideration is that not all cardio is created equally, and should be done with a specific purpose in mind. When I do a long run, I am conditioning my body to utilize fat for energy, getting accustomed to long periods of activity, and training fast twitch muscle to be recruited for endurance activity. Does that mean it's for everyone? Not really.

I think a lot of folks thinkg of a "long" period of cardio as 45-60 minutes. Research has pretty well proven you can get more bang for your buck with a shorter (25 to 30 minute) period of higher intensity activity.

Variety is paramount here. Just doing more of the same thing can lead to diminishing returns, as you directly alluded to. The biggest asset to my training last year was mountain bike racing.

Pete,

Is there a specific purpose for being able to hit a certain benchmark on your lifts? Again, just curious. We all have certain goals, and methods of measuring our training success. My ultimate measurement is how easily I can move around the mountains day in and day out. Sometimes that doesn't directly coincide with other goals (usually strength related).

You can have some of my mass. I am always trying to stay under the double century.

 

[Poser]

Poser,

Okay. That is directly supported by the article I linked in post #14.

An important consideration is that not all cardio is created equally, and should be done with a specific purpose in mind. When I do a long run, I am conditioning my body to utilize fat for energy, getting accustomed to long periods of activity, and training fast twitch muscle to be recruited for endurance activity. Does that mean it's for everyone? Not really.

I think a lot of folks thinkg of a "long" period of cardio as 45-60 minutes. Research has pretty well proven you can get more bang for your buck with a shorter (25 to 30 minute) period of higher intensity activity.

Variety is paramount here. Just doing more of the same thing can lead to diminishing returns, as you directly alluded to. The biggest asset to my training last year was mountain bike racing.

I agree, of course. And by that definition, I do get plenty of "cardio" in the Metabolic Conditioning workouts I do, be it 400m sprints, box jumps, jumping rope, pullups, even deadlifts, front squats and cleans, all done at an accelerated pace (usually measured against the clock, even though that can be controversial). I guess when you throw terms like "cardio" and "cardio" endurance out there, there is still a lot of room to interpret that as putting in endless hours on a treadmill. That being said, if you had told me back in 1999 that I would be doing deadlifts, pullups and box jumps for 10 minutes to increase my endurance, I would have laughed you out of the room.

Congrats on Rainer, btw. I climbed that mountain back in 2000. Weather is no joke. We got stormed in our tent for 2.5 days straight.
One of my best friends married a girl who's father was a famous Rainer guide and Himalayan alpinists. For years, he held the record of the most ascents, though I believe that it has since been broken. He also held the speed record ascent for decades, though I'm sure that's since been broken as well with the" light and fast" trend emerged in Alpinism in the last 20 years.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Richard-McGowan-mountaineer-2563109.php

 

[mohawk32]

I honestly think if what I was doing was bad my body would be telling me some how. Therefore I'm going to keep my routine going for a few more weeks then reassess. But definitely keep the good advice coming!

The problem with this line of thinking is you aren't really testing this program until you're on the mountain at 12,000 feet. That's a bad time to find out you were prepping improperly. Listen to the guys who have BTDT.

 

[pete]

Pete, Is there a specific purpose for being able to hit a certain benchmark on your lifts? Again, just curious. We all have certain goals, and methods of measuring our training success. My ultimate measurement is how easily I can move around the mountains day in and day out. Sometimes that doesn't directly coincide with other goals (usually strength related).

No, not particularly. Not quite a bucket list thing, but wanted to do it at least once. Honestly, I had modest goals and I'm at the point where I feel everyday strong (not powerlifter strong), and I want to re-incorporate running (repeats, intervals, fast miles+), because that's what I am naturally better at and maintain the strength I've developed.

 

[elkeaterco]

Jason has the right idea. I run a bit less but add the miles back on the mtn bike, and pack hikes. Slow and long is the key to building a base (your engine) for hunting hard the entire season, not just the first week. I do crossfit 3 x a week, mtn bike, trail run, and then do a heavy Pack hike. IMO, nothing beats strapping boots on, a heavy pack, and climbing Mtns for hours on end. That's truly the only way to gage if your training is working or just making you look pretty.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I guess when you throw terms like "cardio" and "cardio" endurance out there, there is still a lot of room to interpret that as putting in endless hours on a treadmill. That being said, if you had told me back in 1999 that I would be doing deadlifts, pullups and box jumps for 10 minutes to increase my endurance, I would have laughed you out of the room.

Congrats on Rainer, btw. I climbed that mountain back in 2000. Weather is no joke. We got stormed in our tent for 2.5 days straight.
One of my best friends married a girl who's father was a famous Rainer guide and Himalayan alpinists. For years, he held the record of the most ascents, though I believe that it has since been broken. He also held the speed record ascent for decades, though I'm sure that's since been broken as well with the" light and fast" trend emerged in Alpinism in the last 20 years.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Richard-McGowan-mountaineer-2563109.php

A lot of folks still struggle with the fact that there doesn't necessarily have to be a differentiation between "cardio" and "strength" training. The paradigm still exists that "strength" training isn't beneficial to mountain hunters and endurance athletes, to which I say bullshit.

You obviously get it too, which is great. I bet your athletic performance has increased as a result too.

Thanks on Rainier, and congratulations to you too. We climbed the SW side, can't remember the glacier off the top of my head. It was a great climb.

 

[satchamo]

The problem with this line of thinking is you aren't really testing this program until you're on the mountain at 12,000 feet. That's a bad time to find out you were prepping improperly. Listen to the guys who have BTDT.

Ok and I am listening???

 

[slick]

One thing to remember is that your body cannot be in a catabolic and anabolic state at the same time. I.e. you cannot be building muscle and losing fat simultaneously. .

Hope this isn't high jacking. Sorry if so, quick question.

Can you be in a catabolic state one day? And anabolic the next? Is it better to be in one or the other for a long period of time (for whatever you're trying to accomplish)?

I run 4 days a week ~15-18 miles and lift 3. Take the pack out and walk the dog *almost* daily.
I want to burn fat, and get stronger. Is this possible?

 

[Jason Snyder]

Slick,

It's been a long darned time since grad school, so my memory is a little foggy on this one. I can't remember how long it takes for the hormonal changes to take place that change how your body is metabolizing things. From one day to the next? Not likely. I think you'd be looking at 48 hours plus before your body adapts to the change and goes into one state or the other.

You can gain strength and endurance without increasing muscle mass, so yes you can lose weight and get stronger. Honestly, by mid summer I'm eating like a horse just to stay in maintenance phase for body weight. If you're trying to lose weight, you want to maintain a catabolic state, but not to such a level that your body starts to slow your metabolism down because it's afraid of starving to death. Also, at that point you're not going to be getting max benefit from your workouts.

 

[Poser]

If you're trying to lose weight, you want to maintain a catabolic state, but not to such a level that your body starts to slow your metabolism down because it's afraid of starving to death. Also, at that point you're not going to be getting max benefit from your workouts.

^^this. I'll see if I can dig it back up, but I read an article recently about a well rounded athlete who, for experimentation purposes, took up the traditionalists, LSD approach for training for a triathlon, forgoing all anaerobic work. In a 3 month period, training 10-15 hours per week of steady cardio endurance, she lost a grand total of 5 pounds and lost a lot of muscle on top of that (further illustrating why you see so many overweight people endlessly on the cardio machines and making no progress.)

 

[G Posik]

For a good cardio and weight program that I use in cycles is 10 sets of 10. This is done with a time limit. You have 1 minute to complete the set of 10. What ever time is left of that minute is your rest period. So say you do a set of 10 in 30 seconds, well you get 30 seconds to rest. As soon as the minutes is up you do the second set. It is a great H.I.I.T workout. You will build strength, endurance and get some good cardio in at the same time.

As for diet I hear everyone say 2100 calories or XXXX calories a day. It is not just about the calories. It is very important to pay attention to what those calories are. If you eat 2100 calories of twinkles well you will not do well. Your brain needs carbs to function correctly. Now I try to limit my carbs to morning and midday.

Glenn

 

[satchamo]

For a good cardio and weight program that I use in cycles is 10 sets of 10. This is done with a time limit. You have 1 minute to complete the set of 10. What ever time is left of that minute is your rest period. So say you do a set of 10 in 30 seconds, well you get 30 seconds to rest. As soon as the minutes is up you do the second set. It is a great H.I.I.T workout. You will build strength, endurance and get some good cardio in at the same time.

As for diet I hear everyone say 2100 calories or XXXX calories a day. It is not just about the calories. It is very important to pay attention to what those calories are. If you eat 2100 calories of twinkles well you will not do well. Your brain needs carbs to function correctly. Now I try to limit my carbs to morning and midday.

Glenn

I hear you loud and clear on the diet. I rarely eat processed foods or meats. Just lots of proteins and veggies. One area I definitely lack in is leafy greens I hear so much about haha

 

[Tauntohawk]

Think less about diets and more about improving the bodies health and strength. Starting strength is the first thing I'd recommend to anyone starting out that needs to gain strength. A weak body with a little fat is still a weak body.

If it has a purpose eat lots of it, if it's empty calories don't waste any time with it.

Lift big, sprints, hills, hike.. Keep it simple, beginners can make gains doing almost anything.

 

[BCSteel]

Think less about diets and more about improving the bodies health and strength. Starting strength is the first thing I'd recommend to anyone starting out that needs to gain strength. A weak body with a little fat is still a weak body.

If it has a purpose eat lots of it, if it's empty calories don't waste any time with it.

Lift big, sprints, hills, hike.. Keep it simple, beginners can make gains doing almost anything.

I would second this through first hand experience. As someone new to lifting I'd strongly suggest just keeping things simple and taking advantage of the easy beginners gains you'll make.

I was 6'2" 30 years old about 18% bf and 180lbs when I began Starting Strength. 10 months later of eating big (4000 calls/day to start) and lifting hard I was 215lbs 16% bf and eating 6000 cals/day to keep gaining. I was stronger than ever before. I looked better than ever before and my physical endurance was higher than ever before.

Keep it simple. Work hard. Eat enough to keep making gains.

 

[ndbwhunter]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that's struggling with the balance between cardio/weight-loss/strength. I am 31 years old, 6'4 260lbs with a big frame. All of my excess weight is being carried in my mid-section, and I'm having a tough time making it go away. I am very experienced with weight training, but always focused on putting up numbers for strength and size in order to perform better on the field. With my playing days long gone, my focus is beginning to shift from size and strength to functionality and endurance. I am fairly new to the mountain hunting lifestyle, and will be going on my second elk hunt this fall.

I've used a few different workouts over the past few years, and while the strength gains were good, I wasn't able to shed the extra weight. My diet is pretty typical, in that I eat lots of protein, veggies, etc. Ideally, I'd like to find a program that will put me in the gym 3-5 times a week, and allow me to focus on compound movements for strength, HIIT for weightloss, and a little bit of good'ole cardio mixed in (pack training, stairmaster, jump rope). I recently had knee surgery, so I order to save the rest of my meniscus, I'd prefer the HIIT and cardio to be of the low impact variety.

Can you guys help me out with some ideas or training programs to get me on the right track? I'm sure I could throw something together, but I've always done better following a "program". As I stated before, my primary goals are to lose weight, increase cardio/endurance, and maintain strength with minimal gains. Does this seem doable?

 

[Pilgrim]

There are a lot of people doing a lot of impressive workouts and competitions these days. Props to them and those examples should serve as great motivation and inspiration; however, the majority of us heading west are neither athletes nor have the time to commit to athlete fitness levels. This amplifies the importance of using our training time wisely.
My advice: practice how you play. Put weight on your back and put boots to ground. Add weight and go further / longer as you progress. Incorporate short bursts of high intensity / high speed, low profile movement to shooting positions, much like you'll encounter on the mountain, and execute a realistic shot while winded.
In short, take some time to really evaluate what you're training for and if your training regimen is really an accurate means of preparation.

 

[djsmith46]

I don't have time to find the link but there was a recent study published that showed short intense cardio like sprints up to 400 meters developed better base cardio than sustained cardio like treadmill running. 20 minutes of sprinting a week beat out 20 minutes a day in the gym for performance and fat loss. These kinds of studies are used to support the paleo lifestyle. There are several small scale studies published in various medical and sports journals over the last two decades from what I have gathered reading marks daily apple posts.

As Poser stated there are many studies showing that sustained cardio can actually prevent fat loss due to hormone feed back loops that your body is responding to due to the physical stress you are putting it through. All those skinny fat chicks spending an hour/day on the treadmill...yeah they will never get to their goals for the long term. When I was gym ratting in the mid 1990's with a trainer, she did not want me doing more than 20 minutes of cardio and I was not to exceed 90% of my target heart rate. Even this "low level" amount of effort resulted in body fat loss and increased base cardio. My 5 minutes of warm up cardio was included in that total daily 20 minutes.

For fat loss one of the best things to do is to move three to four times a day for 20 minutes in a way that allows you to hit your 75% target heart rate. Walking with any kind of small increase in elevation will accomplish this. If its really flat you may need to do 30 or 50 yards of walking lunges - which you should be doing anyway for mountian hunting. Climbing a mountain is just thousands of box steps or lunges so get on those to build your base skills.

I'm not sure if we read the same study but it was University of Texas or ASU that did at least a similar study that stated 6, 30 second sprints with full heart rate recovery in between sprints was better for fat loss than some insane amount of low intensity treadmill work (something like an hour). I wish I could remember who did the study. Pretty fascinating.

 

[Jason Snyder]

There are a lot of people doing a lot of impressive workouts and competitions these days. Props to them and those examples should serve as great motivation and inspiration; however, the majority of us heading west are neither athletes nor have the time to commit to athlete fitness levels. This amplifies the importance of using our training time wisely.
My advice: practice how you play. Put weight on your back and put boots to ground. Add weight and go further / longer as you progress. Incorporate short bursts of high intensity / high speed, low profile movement to shooting positions, much like you'll encounter on the mountain, and execute a realistic shot while winded.
In short, take some time to really evaluate what you're training for and if your training regimen is really an accurate means of preparation.

The time commitment that you referenced is all the more reason to add more to your workout rather just weighted pack hikes. You can accomplish a lot in 30 minutes, with no weights and right in your home or your backyard. Weighted hikes are great, but they aren't the end all solution either. Rather, they are a valuable component of a balanced fitness regimen.

 

[Pilgrim]

Entirely valid, Jason. It draws another thought to my mind. I once had a crusty old Sergeant Major that made the point to me that you don't have to PT for hours every day, but it is important to at least do something every day. I took from him a core workout and tailored it to my liking. It's all body weight manipulation and can be done in circuits for as little as 10 min, or an hour or more. I just can't personally accept a daily, or nearly every day, 30 min or less workout -however beastly it can be- as adequate. No day on the mountain stops at 30 minutes in.

The time commitment that you referenced is all the more reason to add more to your workout rather just weighted pack hikes. You can accomplish a lot in 30 minutes, with no weights and right in your home or your backyard. Weighted hikes are great, but they aren't the end all solution either. Rather, they are a valuable component of a balanced fitness regimen.