Why spike only season/tags?

[elkyinzer]

Why do some western states have season/tag options open only to spikes? As an Easterner isn't that akin to killing a button buck deer? Why in the world would state management agencies incentivize killing future trophy bulls, lower the bull:cow ratio, etc.? I'm a meat hunter at heart so I can relate to taking a nice young animal for the table but why not find a young cow, this really confuses me? Do locals find this polarizing or controversial at all?

 

[back country]

I believe it is intended to help manage units for limited entry/trophy type hunts, and also to help manage the size of the herd obviously. Where I live, you can get an archery or rifle spike tag OTC but a branch-antlered bull tag is a LE tag with somewhat steep draw odds. I think the thought process behind this is even though many spike tags are purchased, the reality is that the number of spikes taken compared to tags purchased is pretty low. I think I saw a success rate reporting on spike tags for where I live recently that was around 14-17%. Once they've grown just enough that they can't be classified as a spike anymore, then ideally they should be free to grow to their full potential (barring being killed by a predator, hit by a car, disease, a low-life poacher, etc.), and this should result in more trophy bulls available to the people who draw the LE hunts.

 

[realunlucky]

Utah does it to get hunters to buy a license so they can get a share of the federal tax money while selling off the any bull tags to the highest bidder. Win win

 

[Shrek]

Utah does it to get hunters to buy a license so they can get a share of the federal tax money while selling off the any bull tags to the highest bidder. Win win

Do I detect a little bitterness ?

 

[elkyinzer]

Ahh the almighty $$$. Duh, why didn't I think of that. I still don't get why there isn't (or maybe there is?) more outrage over these tags. Every spike killed is one less mature bull down the road which would increase the number of bulls available to the draw pool which could increase the number of tags which could decrease the wait for a tag from say 25 years to 24 or so (in theory)!

I guess they have to allocate a limited resource somehow. Not like many guys are whacking spikes off the private ranches either so this is just another aspect of the system that makes it more difficult on the public land peasant class. That answers my question, thanks guys, rant over. Back to preparing for the season.

 

[Bar]

My guess is to keep the bull/cow ratio where they want it.

 

[Charina]

Utah does it to get hunters to buy a license so they can get a share of the federal tax money while selling off the any bull tags to the highest bidder. Win win

As a Utah resident, you should know that "any bull" is a specific type of tag, and is OTC. Are you talking of the private landowners in the OTC any bull areas? Because the state gets no cut of that. Or are you talking about the extreme-lack-of-transparency expo tags that are Limited Entry tags? I don't think either have much of any bearing on spike-only hunts.

I still don't get why there isn't (or maybe there is?) more outrage over these tags. Every spike killed is one less mature bull down the road which would increase the number of bulls available to the draw pool which could increase the number of tags which could decrease the wait for a tag from say 25 years to 24 or so (in theory)!

so this is just another aspect of the system that makes it more difficult on the public land peasant class.

Argh. Within Utah, there is enough pressure from in-state horn-porn addicts that we don’t need more from other sources to squeeze out the “peasant class”. I think there are some major misperceptions underlying your assumptions. The outrage from “peasants” is addicts wanting to shorten their waiting period by one, two, or three years – at any cost! All in the name of hunting lots of lightly pressured mature bulls during the peak of the rut! That cost is very high to “peasants” like me!! That could cut me out from any piece of the action on the majority of the hunting units.

First of all, there is no shortage of mature bulls on the Utah Limited Entry units that allow OTC spike hunting. I could have harvested a handful of mature 6x6 bulls last year while searching for the more elusive spike (more elusive as it’s one age class, whereas there are numerous age classes of mature bulls, and they’ve been kicked out of the herds). There is no shortage!

Let’s think through the biology of not harvesting any spikes. Allowing all spikes to grow up will push the bull:cow ratio towards 50:50. It won’t reach that, as the top end of the bulls is being harvested off, but it will tend to go far closer to 50:50 than it is now. The land (esp the winter range, plus cattle, sheep, etc) is the primary limiting factor on the number of elk. In general, for every 1 bull increase, there needs to be a corresponding decrease of 1 cow to not surpass the carrying capacity. A large scale increase in bulls will necessitate a reduction in cows. This will likely do two things: 1) eliminate cow hunts (can one really argue there is a surplus with reduced numbers of cows, AND reduced calf production?), and 2) eliminate spike hunts as well, since the annual output of calves is significantly reduced. So, for the addict’s gain of a couple years shorter wait, the peasant has no share of any hunt in that particular unit. See where the outrage from peasants is? By creating these LE units, the average peasant’s opportunities have already been cut. To make these units even more elitist than they already are may snuff out any participation at all.

If you are a meat hunter, and want yearly opportunities to get meat, come join me on Oct 1. Grab an OTC spike tag, and a flight, and I’ll pick you up at the SLC airport on my way south (but it better be an early arrival on Oct 1! I’m not waiting around for some afternoon flight arrival!) I’ll show you how these units have lots of mature bulls to pick from (even after the LE hunt), and how it still provides opportunities for peasants like myself to get a spike and/or cow. No promises you won’t have to go for night-time hikes to listen to all the bugling and locate a herd to find come first light, as my wife is likely to join me for some or all of the hunt.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Utah is a model of game management that other states could learn from. Their predator control program pays you $50.00 for every coyote head you turn in and you do not need a hunting license, just register online. Of all the states I have hunted, Utah is by far the hunter-friendliest! When you come to Utah they treat you like a valued sportsman. I love Utah! The post above demonstrates the kind of people there. Just remember to BYOB. LOL

 

[MuleyFever]

Charina, thats a pretty good explanation. I have been here 4 years and never heard anyone try to explain it.

Bruce, just make sure you are camping with more than one Mormon. If you only take one they will drink all your beer.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Charina, thats a pretty good explanation. I have been here 4 years and never heard anyone try to explain it.

Bruce, just make sure you are camping with more than one Mormon. If you only take one they will drink all your beer.

I will make a mental note to pack enough for everyone, tequila too. LOL! Nothing like a rousing celebration after a successful hunt (unless you're still hunting the next day).

 

[sneaky]

There are still some great Bulls on Utah OTC units, but you have to be prepared to suffer and work to find them. Last year I talked to a lot of guys with spike only tags and from my sampling size the success rate was very very low. Utah has to make a determination if they want to manage for deer or elk, they compete for the same winter range so there's going to be conflict eventually. I have a friend who sat in on the planning meetings this spring, and the spike/cow CWMU/Public topic was hotly debated. Not going to be an easy fix, that's for sure.

 

[elkyinzer]

I too liked and appreciated that explanation Charina. I see the err in my thinking now with regard to decreasing the wait for draw hunts. I am certainly not a horn hunter always been quantity over quality in that regard. I was of course using "peasant" facetiously and was in a trouble making mood this morning.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

 

[Silentstalker]

Initially Utah started its spike only seasons to give the elk herd a jumpstart. The result was success that no one had really seen before. Areas like the wasatch, manti, and to a lesser extent, fishlake, exploded with elk. The biggest success was mature bulls began breeding cows early in the rut. This early breading resulted in early births of calves which gave them a head start on growing up before winter hit. A lot of late birth calves and fawns dont survive winter. Overall survival increased and LE bull tags were extremely limited.
The first few years there was a huge poaching problem as "hunters" started seeing bulls that were bigger than the raghorns they used to see. Once that was reduced, our bull herd was off to the races as 400" bulls started hitting the dirt all over the state.

All the while spikes were being hunted very aggressively. Last winter after hunting season my buddy found a herd of 19 spikes. They do survive and this year they are all safe to feed and grow until they reach maturity for a hunter in about 5/6 years.

You can definitely argue against spike hunting, but my issue is the fact that we are slaughtering cows to lower our herd numbers. Thats a whole other story!

 

[Where's Bruce?]

"...slaughtering cows to lower our herd numbers?" Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? Everything I have learned suggests Utah has a booming elk management program in place that is very effective. And I suspect that most cow hunters are seeking bigger, older, dried up cows which is a good thing for any carrying capacity. I do not see anything to suggest Utah is intentionally trying "... to lower herd numbers." They may be attempting to stabilize them (for sustainability reasons) but not lower them. I'd need to see some pretty convincing hard data to buy that.

 

[realunlucky]

I'm saving this spot for when I get off work and can type some shit. I'm will versed in Utah's system

 

[huntin'monkey]

I put in for a spike only hunt in Oregon as my second choice, knowing that I wouldn't draw my first choice but would mostly likely get the under-subscribed spike tag and be able to hunt in a limited entry unit with good elk numbers while earning a point. I've seen plenty of mature bulls in this unit and my hunting mentor has put a couple on his wall. I'm happy to shoot a spike bull for the freezer; that's a lot of prime meat.

 

[Bar]

Probably taste better too.

 

[Silentstalker]

"...slaughtering cows to lower our herd numbers?" Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? Everything I have learned suggests Utah has a booming elk management program in place that is very effective. And I suspect that most cow hunters are seeking bigger, older, dried up cows which is a good thing for any carrying capacity. I do not see anything to suggest Utah is intentionally trying "... to lower herd numbers." They may be attempting to stabilize them (for sustainability reasons) but not lower them. I'd need to see some pretty convincing hard data to buy that.

Its not an overstatement, but it is localized to the Wasatch unit. They have been drastically reducing the herd in size not for sustainability but to keep "estimated" numbers below management objectives. Anyone and everyone who has a bull, spike, buck, or moose tag can buy an over the counter control cow tag to be used during their other tags seasons. Add that on to inflated cow permits across the same unit during 3-4 late seasons and yes, the cows are getting shot up.

It has become such an issue of contention between the DWR and Sportsmen that they have brought together a special committee to address the issue.

From your statement it would seem your not a local and that is ok, but for those of us who grew up hunting this area the changes in cow numbers are alarming. Canyons that just 3 years ago housed good numbers of cows are all but void and bulls are found bugling and raking trees with no cows in sight.

The first year of control tags my buddy had a spike and control cow tag. He sat on a ridge and watched as a small herd burst out of the trees headed his way up a long draw. 11 cows and a spike. Not one elk made it to him as they were all shot as they headed up the draw. Its not just the old dry cows they are shooting.

Thankfully the DWR has called for a drop in cow tags this year and they have issued a study that includes radio collaring 200 cows this year and 200 next year to get an idea of their travel habits and where they are coming from as they travel into the wintering ground.

The hard data is there you just need to look at the cow tag numbers, control tag sales, and talk with the biologists. The biggest alarm for me is the incredibly low success rates on cow tags the last two years when nearly every hunter on the mountain has a cow tag. If the cows were there, they would be getting shot.

 

[sneaky]

Its not an overstatement, but it is localized to the Wasatch unit. They have been drastically reducing the herd in size not for sustainability but to keep "estimated" numbers below management objectives. Anyone and everyone who has a bull, spike, buck, or moose tag can buy an over the counter control cow tag to be used during their other tags seasons. Add that on to inflated cow permits across the same unit during 3-4 late seasons and yes, the cows are getting shot up.

It has become such an issue of contention between the DWR and Sportsmen that they have brought together a special committee to address the issue.

From your statement it would seem your not a local and that is ok, but for those of us who grew up hunting this area the changes in cow numbers are alarming. Canyons that just 3 years ago housed good numbers of cows are all but void and bulls are found bugling and raking trees with no cows in sight.

The first year of control tags my buddy had a spike and control cow tag. He sat on a ridge and watched as a small herd burst out of the trees headed his way up a long draw. 11 cows and a spike. Not one elk made it to him as they were all shot as they headed up the draw. Its not just the old dry cows they are shooting.

Thankfully the DWR has called for a drop in cow tags this year and they have issued a study that includes radio collaring 200 cows this year and 200 next year to get an idea of their travel habits and where they are coming from as they travel into the wintering ground.

The hard data is there you just need to look at the cow tag numbers, control tag sales, and talk with the biologists. The biggest alarm for me is the incredibly low success rates on cow tags the last two years when nearly every hunter on the mountain has a cow tag. If the cows were there, they would be getting shot.

So much bad information in this post I don't even know where to start. The guy I work for is on that committee, and I can tell you from getting first-hand information from him that cow numbers aren't down in those units. The hunting pressure is driving them onto the CWMU's where they aren't getting shot. CWMU owners are complaining about high cow numbers on their lands, but aren't allowing hunters in to shoot them. They are trying to get more cow tags issued for the CWMUs so as to create pressure on them to force some of them back onto the public ground. Aerial surveys have born this out, these aren't "estimates" these are freaking elk they have seen and counted. I know quite a few of the DNR guys and gals from doing deer trapping with them over this past winter and spring. We had some lengthy discussions on this very subject. 90% of the gun hunters won't, or don't, walk more than a couple hundred yards from the road. If they don't see them from the truck, they aren't there. That's sad, but it's true. Think of how many lazy hunters you know. Main reason they called for a drop in cow tags is to keep them from pushing onto the CWMUs where they aren't being hunted, not from a drastic drop in cow populations.