Why do straight wall seasons exist?

[TaperPin]

I know absolutely nothing about eastern politics and game laws, but human nature being what it is, it wouldn’t surprise me if a few key decision makers have been hosted on a few freebie hunts sponsored by firearm companies - and I bet a few of the first straight walled models made their way into the hands of these decision makers free of charge. When something seems weird on the surface, just follow the money. Who benefits from straight walled cartridges - not hunters, not the deer, but the companies that get to sell new rifles and ammo.

 

[The_Dinkmaster]

Its complete horse $h*t. I live in Arkansas and this will be our first year with it. We already have a 3 week season of modern gun with minimal restrictions. Add to that special youth seasons, antlerless modern gun hunts on private land, and the Christmas hunt, and we have basically a full month if not more of modern gun season. Its insane.

Now, they've added modern gun to muzzleloader season as well, which is ridiculous. Deer numbers are already way down, so this is just going to make it worse. Might as well just use my .270 or .308....whats the difference?

We also allow crossbow all bow season which is ridiculous unless the hunter was handicapped. It needs its own special season as well IMO.

Just something else the AGFC has screwed up on.

If you cant tell, this really gets my panties in a bunch lol

 

[Bluefish]

You're absolutely right, and it makes no sense. The .35 Whelen is just a necked up .30-06. I killed an average IA whitetail buck a couple years ago with a 180 gr Barnes Vor-Tx out of a CVA Scout in .35 Whelen with a 24" barrel. Shot was 75ish yards, impact velocity was 2800ish and the reaction and recovery were quite unremarkable. Hit him through both lungs from ground blind and he ran about 75 yards and piled up. Entry was caliber and exit was quite large as it hit a rib otw out and a petal broke off and created an additional wound channel. For the ranges I hunt (150 or less) the .44 magnum out of a CVA Scout was more devastating with 4 bang-flops in a row and nearly zero recoil with Federal blue box 240 JHP.

The .358 Winchester is just a necked up .308, and it may be a lower recoil option. However, bullet selection isn't that great either.

The Iowa gun laws during deer season make no rationale sense. Guys were limited to slugs during gun season for years, then straight wall, and now a handful of popular .35s (or bigger) but you've always been able to hunt coyotes without restrictions.

I used a subsonic 45-70 last year with 500g makers. Was devastating on a whitetail sub 50 yards. There is something to using a big bullet. Drop and/or recoil become the limiting factor for long ranges.

 

[LostWapiti]

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that our first draft of regulations here in AR (where we have a massive remington ammo plant) didn’t allow 350 legend, 450 BM, or 45/70, but did allow the 360 Buckhammer.

How did they write it to make this the case? Seems insane.

 

[Boarmaster]

I hunt with family once a year in Ohio where I was raised. There it is primarily a urban sprawl issue. Its pretty hard to find a place where you cant see a house a half mile away. They used to do a lot of party hunting or drives thru small wood plots but you don't see much of that anymore. At least where I hunt.

Rules and regs everywhere are changed incrementally and with compromises. So over time they tend to get fragmented and full of inconsistencies and sometimes don't make sense. Its just the nature of them.

 

[Ozarkansas]

How did they write it to make this the case? Seems insane.

The case had to be at least 1.8” in the original draft language. Not “No More Than 1.8” like you would expect. So pretty much the only qualifying cartridges were 45/70, 450 and 444 Marlin, and all the safari rounds. Lucky for us hunters remington had just released a 1.8” .358 round.

After a lot of pushback they completely removed any length requirement

 

[rem.ostrem]

What pisses me off are the frivilous requirements put on in our state (AR). When in reality there's little to no difference between my .30-30 and a 350 legend.

I know a lot of people here in Iowa that were mad they can't use their 30-30 during shotgun season. My opinion(not that it's right) is that if they allow people to use 30 cals like 30-30 and 30-06, then someone will use a 300win mag. As stated above, there is a road every mile and houses/farms on those multiple roads. So while the 30-30 and 350 legend might not travel far enough to damage something, those big western calibers could really ruin someone's day.

 

[Boarmaster]

I know a lot of people here in Iowa that were mad they can't use their 30-30 during shotgun season. My opinion(not that it's right) is that if they allow people to use 30 cals like 30-30 and 30-06, then someone will use a 300win mag. As stated above, there is a road every mile and houses/farms on those multiple roads. So while the 30-30 and 350 legend might not travel far enough to damage something, those big western calibers could really ruin someone's day.

Same where I am from in NW Ohio. The whole area is in approx 1 square mile road grid (sort of).

 

[Kurts86]

I know a lot of people here in Iowa that were mad they can't use their 30-30 during shotgun season. My opinion(not that it's right) is that if they allow people to use 30 cals like 30-30 and 30-06, then someone will use a 300win mag. As stated above, there is a road every mile and houses/farms on those multiple roads. So while the 30-30 and 350 legend might not travel far enough to damage something, those big western calibers could really ruin someone's day.

I don’t buy that argument because a 30-30 or a 350 legend is still going to travel 2 miles fired over the horizon at a 30 degree angle. I’m not sure if you push out to 3 miles with a 308 that you are having a noticeable difference in hit probability. It’s not like going from 30-06 to 350 legend is going to make the bullets go 250 yards max like #8 birdshot. It’s 3000 yards vs 5000 yards.

Choosing mildly shorter range rifle rounds because someone might shoot over the horizon line is poor logic, but’s it the argument perpetuated in most shotgun slug/straightwall states.

Lots of deer hunting involves shooting down from treestands and bullets going into the dirt 10 yards behind the deer. I’ve hunted within 600 yards of houses with a rifle and it just meant being aware of where I setup, where my backstops were and where the deer were likely to come out.

Straight walled deer cartridges and slugs are a bastardized engineered solution to a rare human behavior problem.

 

[Weldor]

I just read Michigan changed some rules, looks like you can use any rifle during muzzleloader season. Correct me f I'm wrong. Why call it muzzleloader season instead of just general?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I know a lot of people here in Iowa that were mad they can't use their 30-30 during shotgun season. My opinion(not that it's right) is that if they allow people to use 30 cals like 30-30 and 30-06, then someone will use a 300win mag. As stated above, there is a road every mile and houses/farms on those multiple roads. So while the 30-30 and 350 legend might not travel far enough to damage something, those big western calibers could really ruin someone's day.

You can hunt coyotes without restrictions in Iowa. And there are groups of guys that get after them with trucks and radios all over the state. IME, 22-250, 223, 243, 25-06, 270 are very popular, and these are all just as dangerous inside and outside a section as a .30 cal.

The .35 Whelen is legal and is simply a necked up .30-06 that shoots bullets .05" larger in diameter. A 180 Barnes at 2900 FPS is efffective to 400 or so on whitetails and flies a hell of a lot further than that.

 

[kherbstreit1775]

I just read Michigan changed some rules, looks like you can use any rifle during muzzleloader season. Correct me f I'm wrong. Why call it muzzleloader season instead of just general?

I think that is only for Zone 3 + a few specific counties in Zone 2, and it's any legal rifle for that zone, so you still have to use a straight wall or shotgun for Zone 3. I think they are mainly doing it to promote doe harvest, as they also recently added a an extended late antlerless firearm season in certain counties (mostly in Zone 3, some in Zone 2) from Jan 2-12. Not sure if that is private land only or not

 

[Macintosh]

My state doesnt have a straight wall season, we have a "regular season" in which any implement may be used, we have a muzzleloader season, and we have a bow season in which (as of a few years ago) both vertical and crossbows may be used. The rationale I am very familiar with having been involved in some of these season-setting processes, is that people want the longest season possible, the state wants to kill the number of deer they think is necessary to achieve management goals, and there is a long-term decline in hunter participation in this region (verified by license sales, that is real) so they want to make access to hunting as easy as possible for new hunters at the same time. The combination of seasons and allowed implements is the best way they have found to be able to do all of those things, even though there are people who bitterly complain about this from a variety of perspectives. We dont have any areas in the state where firearms are restricted in any way except inside city limits in a few of our cities where firearms discharge is prohibited except in self-defense.

None of the neighboring states have a staight wall season either. A couple states south of me there is a shotgun-only season which is their firearms season. As an outsider everything I have heard and read on the subject is that shotgun and straight-wall seasons are a solution to hunting in much more densely developed areas and areas that have mostly much smaller parcels of land, and/or more people who want to hunt. So both density of development around hunting areas and density of hunters, is the concern in limiting the effective range of implements from a safety standpoint. Everything I have read on that subject points to shotguns and straight-wall cartridges as having lesser range before hitting the ground, which is the main factor. So as far as I always knew that WAS the definitive answer: we have these seasons to allow the longest time to hunt, while still keeping efficacy low enough to stay below harvest maximums, efficacy high enough to achieve enough of a harvest to reach management goals, and maintain as much safety as possible in suburban and semi-rural areas.

regarding some comments I saw in this thread earlier: I did some reading and found the PA richochet study mentioned has a lot of detractors who felt that the study had numerous flaws that render its conclusions un-useable. Here is one example I found on a quick google search (link). One reason I saw that people discounted it was that they apparently didnt actually do any testing, it was all based on a computer model; the other reason being that they did not account for the dramatically flatter trajectory of a necked rifle cartridge and therefore the much greater distance it will travel when fired horizontally before hitting the ground when a target is missed, instead focusing only on richochet from a flat and hard surface (which is a extreme rarity in woods and fields ime).

So what I can find leads me to believe that the reasons for a straightwall season (rightly or wrongly) are the same as they have been explained to me every time in the past--to allow a combination of seasons providing the longest time to hunt, while still keeping efficacy low enough to stay below harvest maximums, efficacy high enough to achieve enough of a harvest to reach management goals, while maintaining as much safety as possible in suburban and semi-rural areas.

Where I am lost is the new arkansas regulation. Every reg I've seen from my own states and other states fish and wildlife dept gives the reason for a change...the AR info I found (link) doesnt provide any rationale whatsoever, nor does it illustrate any goal, and seems kind of contradictory to allow repeating cartridge rifles, but explicitly NOT allow shotgun slugs. Maybe it makes sense by some rationale? ...but no such rationale was even hinted at. If nothing else, allowing repeating cartridge rifles while not allowing shotgun slugs seems to toss any nuanced formula around harvest rate vs hunter efficacy as a rationale for the regulation out the window.

 

[The_Dinkmaster]

Where I am lost is the new arkansas regulation. Every reg I've seen from my own states and other states fish and wildlife dept gives the reason for a change...the AR info I found (link) doesnt provide any rationale whatsoever, nor does it illustrate any goal, and seems kind of contradictory to allow repeating cartridge rifles, but explicitly NOT allow shotgun slugs. Maybe it makes sense by some rationale? ...but no such rationale was even hinted at. If nothing else, allowing repeating cartridge rifles while not allowing shotgun slugs seems to toss any nuanced formula around harvest rate vs hunter efficacy as a rationale for the regulation out the window.

It doesnt make any sense, from a conservation perspective. The AGFC are dumbasses.

Like anything else, Im sure it is about money

 

[Macintosh]

Well, conservation funding IS a reason, a legit one at that. “Increased hunter opportunity” is a euphemism for increased revenue if you have that particularly cynical perspective. But there was already an opportunity there…and if it was about efficacy, then why prohibit slugs? I dont have to LIKE the reason, its just odd that there is no reason given at all. Id be curious to hear from someone on the inside what the rationale was.

 

[The_Dinkmaster]

Well, conservation funding IS a reason, a legit one at that. “Increased hunter opportunity” is a euphemism for increased revenue if you have that particularly cynical perspective. But there was already an opportunity there…and if it was about efficacy, then why prohibit slugs? I dont have to LIKE the reason, its just odd that there is no reason given at all. Id be curious to hear from someone on the inside what the rationale was.

Oh it will increase earnings alright. There will be a plethora of tags sold in Arkansas to guys that usually only hunt modern gun, that will now buy a muzzleloader tag and spend 3x the amount of money than if they had just bought a modern gun tag (In Arkansas you can buy a modern gun tag or you have to buy a full season tag to get early bow, muzzleload and MG tags).

So theyll make way more money. But what will they do with it? Nothing to promote improvement in deer or turkey population, I promise you that.

It will be spent on new trucks and 4 wheelers, and to promote more helicopter hunts for wild hogs for the AGFC commissioner and his buddies.

 

[z987k]

I know a lot of people here in Iowa that were mad they can't use their 30-30 during shotgun season. My opinion(not that it's right) is that if they allow people to use 30 cals like 30-30 and 30-06, then someone will use a 300win mag. As stated above, there is a road every mile and houses/farms on those multiple roads. So while the 30-30 and 350 legend might not travel far enough to damage something, those big western calibers could really ruin someone's day.

There's no functional difference between a -06 and a win mag in the context of shots going past their intended target.

 

[Macintosh]

Dinkmaster, that all may be true, I have no idea as I have zero connection to AR, but I'm not making a judgement one way or another on what they are spending $ on, I'm simply wondering what the rationale for the reg was and saying that in a general sense conservation funding is a legit reason. The point is that the fish and wildlife dept is responsible for managing fish and wildlife, which costs money to do, and like it or not, hunting and fishing licenses and taxes on hunting and fishing equipment are the main funding mechanisms to do that. Not sure if you've bought groceries recently, but stuff aint getting any cheaper. Arguing over what the best use of that funding is, and trying to see those things iplemented, is a good thing. But funding that department is still a necessary thing. IF funding is the reason for the reg, and if the science supports the harvest remaining within (or closer to) management objectives, then I see nothing wrong with that in principle. It's just really odd that they offer zero rationale one way or another.

 

[Long Cut]

I’m in Georgia, really no “dog” in this fight because we can hunt with firearms from Mid October until January.

That being said, I used to hear all of the time the reason for our extremely long firearm season and liberal bag limits (10 does & 2 bucks) was because the Insurance Companies were lobbying to reduce Deer vs Automobile collisions.
I never believed it much, but the more I think about it… the more sense that makes.

Going back to Straight wall calibers vs ML/Shotgun… I think very similar applies here. Folks with “say” want to use whatever weapons they want, increase firearms/ammunition sales, increase hunter participation AND.. increase deer harvests which will in turn… lower Deer vs Automobile accidents

*Taking the tinfoil hat off* that’s my .02

 

[The_Dinkmaster]

I’m in Georgia, really no “dog” in this fight because we can hunt with firearms from Mid October until January.

That being said, I used to hear all of the time the reason for our extremely long firearm season and liberal bag limits (10 does & 2 bucks) was because the Insurance Companies were lobbying to reduce Deer vs Automobile collisions.
I never believed it much, but the more I think about it… the more sense that makes.

Going back to Straight wall calibers vs ML/Shotgun… I think very similar applies here. Folks with “say” want to use whatever weapons they want, increase firearms/ammunition sales, increase hunter participation AND.. increase deer harvests which will in turn… lower Deer vs Automobile accidents

*Taking the tinfoil hat off* that’s my .02

In short, youre right. All about the money