Why do straight wall seasons exist?

[Dave0317]

What’s the point of the straight wall seasons in places that have them? In my state, we have a primitive rifle season that is similar. In the thick woods here, most will agree, it almost makes zero difference to your ability to kill a deer. It’s horribly written so it allows a few fairly modern single shots (even in .35 whelen) , and outlaws some legit old (1800s) rifles like the Farquharson, because it doesn’t have a “exposed hammer”. So it’s not primitive and doesn’t affect harvest rates from what I can tell.

I know some areas that have slugs only, the intent is to limit how far the projectile will travel for safety reasons near populated areas. Which is silly. Does anyone know of a police department that uses straight wall only? In the most populated areas and the most unpredictable situations, they still use 5.56.

Is it to limit a hunters effective range? I would bet the eastern states average deer shooting distance is well within the range of straight wall cartridges, regardless of the round used.

 

[Warmsy]

I've always wondered the same thing

 

[Ozarkansas]

I think there’s a handful of reasons, some more legitimate than others.

-firstly, they limit the range of the bullet, and therefore (hopefully) reduce the risk of someone being struck by errant rounds in flat, open country with lots of homes. In the Midwest where this is a concern, straight wall seasons have gradually supplanted shotgun-only zones. In this case I think it makes sense to open up the gun season to them.

- another reason they exist is because they’ve replaced the muzzleloader season, like here in Arkansas. The argument is that since we didn’t do anything to restrict muzzleloader technology, muzzleloaders are as effective now as straight wall guns, so might as well allow straight walls. This doesn’t take into account reload time, and I think it’s a pretty dumb idea when we already have 3 weeks of unrestricted modern gun season. Our state would have been better off restricting muzzleloader tech for the last 20 years and keeping the season muzzleloaders only.

-lastly, (pardon my tinfoil hat) I think there’s a strong push by the gun/ammo industry to get these seasons in place to sell more products. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that our first draft of regulations here in AR (where we have a massive remington ammo plant) didn’t allow 350 legend, 450 BM, or 45/70, but did allow the 360 Buckhammer. That plus the fact that a some of our commissioners hunt in big clubs that span Arkansas and Mississippi and explicitly stated that they wanted to be able to use the same gun on both parts of the club.

 

[Bluefish]

What’s the point of the straight wall seasons in places that have them?

Is it to limit a hunters effective range? I would bet the eastern states average deer shooting distance is well within the range of straight wall cartridges, regardless of the round used.

Yes, it’s a attempt to limit how far a bullet travels, effectively range as well. By limiting to a large bullet usually 35 cal or larger BC is usually low, lots of drag. By being straight wall case capacity is limited keeping velocity down. Some states also limit oal which further limits powder capacity. In the end the regulations create a limit of 250-300 yards for effective bullet performance. Also many of these states allow drives/party hunting.

I have heard some of the changes from shotgun to rifle was to increase participation. Less recoil, higher accuracy vs a shotgun slug. Trajectory is similar.

In iowa which was shotgun only, then straight wall, and now 35 cal or larger, the reasoning has been its flat and we don’t want people shooting 400+ yards. There is a road every mile at a minimum and lots of houses. Some hunters claim that shorter ranges help keep bigger bucks alive longer. Although you can now use almost anything in late seasons in a few hilly counties.

 

[rayporter]

i grew up in shotgun only zones. it is slightly easier to understand with hindsight.

the progression of slugs from Forrester to sabots in shotguns gives one a somewhat different perspective. way back in a smoothbore shotgun with a real slug, range was limited. a hundred yard shotgun was rare. groups were truly dinner plate sized at 60yd.

the new alternative weapons season in Arkansas does seem very unusual. and stupid.

 

[Ditt44]

#1 reason...gun manufacturers. They drive most changes in 'special' seasons and coincide with special regulation areas, which are needed with the suburban sprawl in many regions. TC got a huge boost in their early days by states like PA creating flintlock only seasons. Any muzzle loader manufacturer with a decent product sold boat loads of MLs in the 70s and 80s as ML-only seasons spread. Look at how ML seasons in many states have now morphed into early and late and seem to allow more and more sophisticated weapons. For crying out loud, guys are putting brakes on MLs and shooting .... trying to shoot ridiculous distances.

#2 is again, sprawl. Limited range weapons are 'safer' but in one study done in PA in the early 2000s, a 30-06, 12 gauge and traditional ML were compared for ricochet danger/range/etc. Which one do you think was the most dangerous and the least???
- most dangerous: 12-gauge slug. Least: ML Yet all the 'shotgun only' regions/reg areas all over the east coast and much of the mid-west at the time would profess the shotguns were a safety measure. Now it's straight walls.

And the proliferation/legal use of 'black rifles'. Come on already.... see point $1... I mean #1

Most of today's drive is by the gun makers. Period. None of us truly need a gun for every critter. I have far too many, mostly traditional MLs but long gone are the days of the three-gun hunter... a .22, and 20 or 12 gauge shotgun and one center fire rifle. Sure, opportunities are greater today but gun culture says, buy more, one for every hand and every animal in every season.

Sorry that turned into an editorial. Must be my age showing.

 

[SloppyJ]

What pisses me off are the frivilous requirements put on in our state (AR). When in reality there's little to no difference between my .30-30 and a 350 legend.

 

[Ditt44]

^^^^EXACTLY.... SloppyJ... a buddy and I were just talking about that last weekend. He's in a special regs area in PA and cannot use his .30-.30 yet the .350 Legend he just bought is ballistically all but identical. Makes no sense, unless you're chasing the $$$.

From a regulations standpoint, it is much easier on the state officials to say 'straight wall' because it would be impossible to control hand-loaded non-straight wall cartridges if there was an on-paper rule of X fps, say 2300 or less. So a SW cartridge is easy to eye ball and go from there and it generates more sales for the gun makers who can convince state law makers/policy officials it's a good thing... after dinner and drinks and weekends at the shore.

I think too many guys jump on the 'need another gun for...' instead of thinking, I already have X that fits condition A so why not use that?

 

[Ozarkansas]

one study done in PA in the early 2000s, a 30-06, 12 gauge and traditional ML were compared for ricochet danger/range/etc. Which one do you think was the most dangerous and the least???

I was wondering that while hunting on a lake that used to be shotgun and muzzleloader only. It sure seems like a big, slow slug would be less likely to break up and more likely to travel far if it hits the water at a low angle, compared to something like a .243

 

[SloppyJ]

^^^^EXACTLY.... SloppyJ... a buddy and I were just talking about that last weekend. He's in a special regs area in PA and cannot use his .30-.30 yet the .350 Legend he just bought is ballistically all but identical. Makes no sense, unless you're chasing the $$$.

From a regulations standpoint, it is much easier on the state officials to say 'straight wall' because it would be impossible to control hand-loaded non-straight wall cartridges if there was an on-paper rule of X fps, say 2300 or less. So a SW cartridge is easy to eye ball and go from there and it generates more sales for the gun makers who can convince state law makers/policy officials it's a good thing... after dinner and drinks and weekends at the shore.

I think too many guys jump on the 'need another gun for...' instead of thinking, I already have X that fits condition A so why not use that?

Our season just changed and they added straightwalls to our conventional muzzleloader season. I'd be much more upset if that's all I was allowed to use for rifle season but to me it's still stupid. I understand why they can't base it off velocity or ballistics. As a handloader I could rig the odds in my favor for sure. The rule that really gets me is that you can't use a semi auto. Like that's where we are drawing the line? Cmon guys. I'd throw a 350 legend upper on one of my ARs no problem but I'm not keen on getting a whole new rifle just for a week of season although that's exactly what I did with my muzzleloader. I've decided to just use my muzzleloader and keep it moving until real rifle season. Hell, last year I shot a buck and a doe circled back around and watched me reload just to drop her too. At that time of the year here, they aren't pressured but I'd rather just use my 30-30.

Does anyone think that kill ratios or any sort of statistic like that is factored in? I'm wondering if they see it as a positive that more deer could be taken during this time? I'd like to think that straightwalls will be more accurate than most of the muzzleloaders the average Joe would use. I know plenty of guys who put them up loaded and deal with it the next year. I'm positive there are a ton of deer that are mortally wounded during a typical muzzleloader season and most probably don't punch their tag if they don't find it. Maybe they think it will be more ethical? That's the only positive I can think of other than allowing the potential for more people to get out and hunt if they by chance already own a straightwall cartridge, which I doubt they do here.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Like that's where we are drawing the line?

The problem is that you have to draw the line somewhere or else it’s just an extra 2 weeks of modern gun- which it kind of already is. Once you say “modern muzzleloaders are as good as straight wall cartridges so let’s allow those” you then have to say “if some straight wall cartridges are as good as some bottle neck cartridges, why can’t we use those”. There really isn’t a good answer other than “because we needed to do something to differentiate it from modern gun season”.

 

[Ditt44]

WMU 5C in PA allows center fire rifles through the end of January with minor off-time. Just across the county line between Berks and Chester... straight wall or ML/shot gun. State parks and game lands on each side/cut by the county line. Have to pay attention to your GPS location if you carry the center fire. Definitely adds to the harvest counts and is the point, and necessary in many areas. Ran into two very nice game officers late last January and had a long chat. They asked my buddy and I... "You know you're in Berks, you know that you can use your center fires, right?". I had my in-line, he had his flintlock.

Ozarkanasas has it right though, the slippery slope on this one is seemingly greased every couple years with some new marketing angle. I would rather see a tightening of regs to limit the tech used. In some ways many hunters are going to see it as a 'keeping up with the Jones' and feel they need to be on equal ground so they too buy a straight wall gun. I suppose that's the marketing angle right there. With my in-line, a 200 yard shot is completely within the gun and my capability but where I hunt, that's a long way where under 150 is more likely if not under 50. If I do my job, one shot is all I need so why worry about a 4, 5+ round mag?

Again, getting old and the easy way seems more childish and I like the ML better, flint, cap or in-line. Just think they are getting way over complicated these days and we all know they're as good as a center fire at common hunting distance. Western states are slowly proving this with rolling back/tightening many ML regs and I think that's the right thing to do. Look at the latest craze with MLs, 300, 400 yard shooting? Blackhorn 209? Muzzle brakes? And with open sights, who among the vast majority of average hunters should even consider shooting beyond 200 in the perfect scenario? The vast majority have no business even having the thought, myself included.

 

[Bluefish]

As far as allowing straight wall during ml season, not sure that’s a good idea. Honestly I like the western states going to iron sights only for ml. Colorado goes a bit further and makes you use full bore, no sabots. To me that’s why there is an early ml season. It’s harder to take an animal so you get first crack. Iowa does an early season as well, but that knocks you out of gun seasons, so it’s hard to hunt with friends who don’t do ml.

The move from shotgun to straightwall was a good one imho. Not a big difference in effective range, yet easier to make a clean harvest. It is a bit odd than I can hunt coyotes with my 25-06, yet can’t use it on deer.

 

[z987k]

The Iowa reg is pretty funny. So you can bring the 375 cheytac, but not the 243 win.

 

[Bluefish]

The Iowa reg is pretty funny. So you can bring the 375 cheytac, but not the 243 win.

Correct. I can use my 35 whelen with a 150g going 3k ish, but not a 30-06. A bit silly imho, but that’s what we can do. Heck I talk to people everyday who still think it’s straightwall only and the regulations changed 4 years ago to allow any 35 cal or larger.

In some ways I can see why they changed it as limiting to 35 cal does tend to limit BC. While there are high BC 35 and 375 bullets, they are very heavy which has a huge recoil penalty. I am going back and trying light for caliber copper to see if faster and lighter is better than heavier.

 

[Nine Banger]

I live in SC where you can shoot anything in season with whatever you want to throughout an entire season.

I plan to head to Iowa at some point in the next few years with this 450 Marlin:



These types of regs always seem like there were a group of dudes in a back room somewhere spit balling ideas for take methods and their boss said there had to be 6 new items this season and they had to come up with them by Friday.

 

[Honyock]

I'm guessing it's the gun and ammo manufacturers. If you want to dial back the "long range" muzzleloaders, all you have to do is take the optics off them. Luckily the only change I can remember in muzzleloader or rifle regs in Oklahoma was when they allowed scopes on muzzleloaders probably 25 years ago. We don't have a shortage of deer and I would guess that 95% of deer are killed within 150-200 yards.

 

[z987k]

Correct. I can use my 35 whelen with a 150g going 3k ish, but not a 30-06. A bit silly imho, but that’s what we can do. Heck I talk to people everyday who still think it’s straightwall only and the regulations changed 4 years ago to allow any 35 cal or larger.

In some ways I can see why they changed it as limiting to 35 cal does tend to limit BC. While there are high BC 35 and 375 bullets, they are very heavy which has a huge recoil penalty. I am going back and trying light for caliber copper to see if faster and lighter is better than heavier.

Inside 300 and sometimes up to 400 yards, muzzle velocity typically wins over BC.

 

[Bluefish]

Inside 300 and sometimes up to 400 yards, muzzle velocity typically wins over BC.

Surprisingly the bc between the 160’s and 200’s is close. One 200 is .369 the other is .3 and the 160 is .31. Having used the 160’s out of a pistol, I know they work down to 1700 fps or slower. Gives plenty of range when the whelen will launch them at close to 3k.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Correct. I can use my 35 whelen with a 150g going 3k ish, but not a 30-06. A bit silly imho, but that’s what we can do. Heck I talk to people everyday who still think it’s straightwall only and the regulations changed 4 years ago to allow any 35 cal or larger.

In some ways I can see why they changed it as limiting to 35 cal does tend to limit BC. While there are high BC 35 and 375 bullets, they are very heavy which has a huge recoil penalty. I am going back and trying light for caliber copper to see if faster and lighter is better than heavier.

You're absolutely right, and it makes no sense. The .35 Whelen is just a necked up .30-06. I killed an average IA whitetail buck a couple years ago with a 180 gr Barnes Vor-Tx out of a CVA Scout in .35 Whelen with a 24" barrel. Shot was 75ish yards, impact velocity was 2800ish and the reaction and recovery were quite unremarkable. Hit him through both lungs from ground blind and he ran about 75 yards and piled up. Entry was caliber and exit was quite large as it hit a rib otw out and a petal broke off and created an additional wound channel. For the ranges I hunt (150 or less) the .44 magnum out of a CVA Scout was more devastating with 4 bang-flops in a row and nearly zero recoil with Federal blue box 240 JHP.

The .358 Winchester is just a necked up .308, and it may be a lower recoil option. However, bullet selection isn't that great either.

The Iowa gun laws during deer season make no rationale sense. Guys were limited to slugs during gun season for years, then straight wall, and now a handful of popular .35s (or bigger) but you've always been able to hunt coyotes without restrictions.