Which would you pick... Replacing my bows

[wildernessmaster]

I have to say, I have largely been a Matthews guy. I started with a diamond which I still have, but when it went kaput during an elk hunt one of my first years (my fault), I bought a Mission as a replacement. I loved the way it shot. Then after last season I went all in and bought a Vertix.

After shooting the Vertix during the off season, I find it is rough on the draw cycle, and at full draw it wants to slam my hand forward at the least little anchor adjustment. I also notice that my groups with my Vertix are not at tight. Side by side during the off season my Mission (brace height 7.5) would way outgroup my Vertix. So I guess I need a forgiving bow.

With my Mission needing a work over (cable string frayed), I have decided to put it and my Vertix on the market and move on to a bow (or bow set) that meets my shooting needs.

What I want in my next bow(s):
1. Smooth draw cycle
2. Solid at anchor and forgiving with minor anchor movements
3. 6.75 - 7.5 Brace Height
4. Ideally a single brand/model that comes in a close to 30" ATA and a 33+ ATA variant. I want a shorter axle for Eastern hunting set up and a longer axle for my western set up. Either being the backup for the other.
5. 70 and 80 lb draw weight options (again 70 on the short axle, and 80 and the long axel).
6. Easy to maintain and tune - man I learned a hard lesson with Matthews given the replacement of the yoke cables.... can you say a bitch (taking the whole cams off, and then having to put tiny shims on blind)

Three things I am looking for as input:
1. Are my reasonings solid ones here, as well as my assessment of my current bows or am I smoking crack.
2. Is my wants list a good one or is it too much.
3. Are the candidate bow options I am considering solid or do you have better ones?

My candidate bows I am considering are:

Bowtech Revolt and RevoltX - the only down side of these bows is they don't have an 80lb variant. Otherwise they tick my list.

PSE NockOn Evo NTN 33 - the downside of this bow is it only comes in the 33" ATA

I also have considered the Hoyt R4 but its pushing my price range, and it does not look like it has some of the ease of tuning features.

 

[Farmingdale's Finest]

Personally I think anything shorter than 33-34 is ridiculously short. The shorter the bow the steeper the string angle which makes it harder to come to a consistent anchor. It also has the peep farther from the eye which then requires a larger hole to look through which further reduces accuracy. This is why I am still shooting a 2012 Elite Pure. It has a 36" ATA with a roughly 330 IBO. To me it is the perfect compromise between speed, accuracy and forgiveness.

As far as 70 and 80 pound bows. Again I would stick with a max for most people of 70 and frankly most will shoot better with less draw weight. I am a big strong guy capable of shooting 80 pounds but am currently shooting 67lbs. I will likely be reducing that draw weight as I realize that with modern bows a 60 lb bow is putting out more energy than most 75-80 pound bows of 15 years ago. A 40lb recurve with a cut on contact head will take down with proper shot placement virtually anything in North America.

Now between the Bowtech and the PSE. They both have very different performance profiles. The Bowtech has a 15-20fps faster IBO. That is the equivalent of shooting a 10+ pounds higher draw weight compared to the PSE while shooting the same draw weight.

My brother has the PSE Carbon stealth set at 72lbs and it is a sweet drawing bow. It’s very similar to what you are asking about. That being said it’s not a speed burner. Where he and I make up speed is we both have a 30” draw while most people are closer to 28” give or take a little. So apples to apples because of our longer draw we will shoot 10-20fps faster.

Both bows you are asking about are sweet looking and again for consistency I would look at the 33+ inch ATA and keep it to 70. There is a reason most companies don’t offer heavier draws. That’s because since the 90’s when it wasn’t uncommon to see 90lbs draws. We have gotten bows shooting more efficiently and thus both faster with less vibration to get that speed at a lower draw weight.

Good luck with what ever you choose.


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[Billy Goat]

My only advice is to not sell the vertix until you are certain you have found a replacement for it, could be it doesn't fit you for whatever reason. I haven't spent much time at all shooting the bows your asking about, however the draw cycle a lot of times comes down to what you are familiar with. Certainly differences in draw cycles from bow to bow, however a lot of times it's just what you are use to.

I wouldn't worry very much about 80#. Most people I have seen their accuracy goes down the heavier they go, the difference in energy from 70-80 doesn't make up for poor shooting. If you can do it great. That's one place I feel like Mathews is ahead, you can put 60# mods on a bow to really get used to it, then order 70# or 75# mods to decide where you want to be. I elk hunted with 75# mods, dropped back to 65# once I got back east.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Personally I think anything shorter than 33-34 is ridiculously short. The shorter the bow the steeper the string angle which makes it harder to come to a consistent anchor. It also has the peep farther from the eye which then requires a larger hole to look through which further reduces accuracy.

As far as 70 and 80 pound bows. Again I would stick with a max for most people of 70 and frankly most will shoot better with less draw weight. I am a big strong guy capable of shooting 80 pounds but am currently shooting 67 and will likely be reducing that draw weight as I realize that with modern bows a 60 lb bow is putting out more energy than most 75-80 pound bows of 15 years ago. A 40lb recurve with a cut on contact head will take down with proper shot placement virtually anything in North America.

Now between the Bowtech and the PSE. They both have very different performance profiles. The Bowtech has a 15-20fps faster IBO. That is the equivalent to shooting a 10+ pounds higher draw weight compared to the PSE while shooting the same draw weight.

My brother has the PSE Carbon stealth set at 72lbs and it is a sweet drawing bow. It’s very similar to what you are asking about. That being said it’s not a speed burner. Where he and I make up speed is we both have a 30” draw while most people are closer to 28” give or take a little. So apples to apples because of our longer draw we will shoot 10-20fps faster.

Both bows you are asking about are sweet looking and again for consistency I would look at the 33+ inch ATA and keep it to 70. There is a reason most companies don’t offer heavier draws. That’s because since the 90’s when it wasn’t uncommon to see 90lbs draws. We have gotten bows shooting more efficiently and this both faster with less vibration to get that speed.

Good luck with what ever you choose.


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Thank you for the thoughtful reply...

 

[doncarpenter]

I have to say, I have largely been a Matthews guy. I started with a diamond which I still have, but when it went kaput during an elk hunt one of my first years (my fault), I bought a Mission as a replacement. I loved the way it shot. Then after last season I went all in and bought a Vertix.

After shooting the Vertix during the off season, I find it is rough on the draw cycle, and at full draw it wants to slam my hand forward at the least little anchor adjustment. I also notice that my groups with my Vertix are not at tight. Side by side during the off season my Mission (brace height 7.5) would way outgroup my Vertix. So I guess I need a forgiving bow.

With my Mission needing a work over (cable string frayed), I have decided to put it and my Vertix on the market and move on to a bow (or bow set) that meets my shooting needs.

What I want in my next bow(s):
1. Smooth draw cycle
2. Solid at anchor and forgiving with minor anchor movements
3. 6.75 - 7.5 Brace Height
4. Ideally a single brand/model that comes in a close to 30" ATA and a 33+ ATA variant. I want a shorter axle for Eastern hunting set up and a longer axle for my western set up. Either being the backup for the other.
5. 70 and 80 lb draw weight options (again 70 on the short axle, and 80 and the long axel).
6. Easy to maintain and tune - man I learned a hard lesson with Matthews given the replacement of the yoke cables.... can you say a bitch (taking the whole cams off, and then having to put tiny shims on blind)

Three things I am looking for as input:
1. Are my reasonings solid ones here, as well as my assessment of my current bows or am I smoking crack.
2. Is my wants list a good one or is it too much.
3. Are the candidate bow options I am considering solid or do you have better ones?

My candidate bows I am considering are:

Bowtech Revolt and RevoltX - the only down side of these bows is they don't have an 80lb variant. Otherwise they tick my list.

PSE NockOn Evo NTN 33 - the downside of this bow is it only comes in the 33" ATA

I also have considered the Hoyt R4 but its pushing my price range, and it does not look like it has some of the ease of tuning features.

I have very similar tastes to you when it comes to bows. Right now I am shooting a Traverse with wake limbs for my western bow (33 ATA, 6.675 brace, 84 lbs) and a Halon 7 for midwest hunting (30 ATA, 7 brace, 70 lbs). I settled on Mathews after trying nearly every bow brand for about three years(owned about 30 different bows in that time). I really like the tuning system, draw cycle, and weight(I know they're heavy, I like that). I had a VXR this year as well but I would rather shoot the Traverse with heavy limbs than the VXR at 75lbs and I was more accurate with the Halon 7. The switch weight mods add some stiffness to the draw cycle in my opinion. It's not a ton but it's noticable when you shoot them side by side. I also just shoot longer brace height bows better, obviously they are more forgiving but I really appreciate the extra room when wearing bulky cold weather clothes.

This is just what I have settled on for me, I'm in no way suggesting that it's the only way to go. There are a lot of good bows out there right now, and likely some good ones about to be released.

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[Bl704]

Farmingdale reply solid.

I'd really only consider the 80#, if you intended to hunt exotics, Intl or maybe a few of the largest animals in NA. Cold late season weather, when wearing bulky clothes, especially if you have a long hold, another case where the 80 may be a disservice over a 70.

Go shoot them all, including having to let down and not fire.

I fell in love with the feel of the Elite, ymmv, but another brand I'd throw into the lot. I really liked the Bowtechs too, but didn't appreciate their history of limb issues.

 

[JustJustin]

My only advice is to not sell the vertix until you are certain you have found a replacement for it, could be it doesn't fit you for whatever reason. I haven't spent much time at all shooting the bows your asking about, however the draw cycle a lot of times comes down to what you are familiar with. Certainly differences in draw cycles from bow to bow, however a lot of times it's just what you are use to.

I wouldn't worry very much about 80#. Most people I have seen their accuracy goes down the heavier they go, the difference in energy from 70-80 doesn't make up for poor shooting. If you can do it great. That's one place I feel like Mathews is ahead, you can put 60# mods on a bow to really get used to it, then order 70# or 75# mods to decide where you want to be. I elk hunted with 75# mods, dropped back to 65# once I got back east.

Aren't most bows adjustable by at least 10 lbs? Wouldn't it be easier to just turn limb bolts?

As far as a replacement bow goes, (I am a Hoyt guy) but there's really no NEED to buy a new model. My Defiant 34 (also available in a 30"ATA, as well as a 33" Turbo) shoots better than my RX3. Since around 2016, new bows simply don't have much more to offer. You could save yourself a lot of $$$ and I think that a Defiant would check all your boxes.

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[Billy Goat]

Aren't most bows adjustable by at least 10 lbs? Wouldn't it be easier to just turn limb bolts?

As far as a replacement bow goes, (I am a Hoyt guy) but there's really no NEED to buy a new model. My Defiant 34 (also available in a 30"ATA, as well as a 33" Turbo) shoots better than my RX3. Since around 2016, new bows simply don't have much more to offer. You could save yourself a lot of $$$ and I think that a Defiant would check all your boxes.

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They are, I prefer to shoot a bow bottomed out. Doesn't matter anything like it use to now, but with the SW you can go 50-75#

Defiant had a few cam issues. I had one, after ten years I washed my hands with Hoyt after all the headache I had from my turbo defiant. In my opinion Hoyt isn't what it used to be.

 

[wildernessmaster]

My only advice is to not sell the vertix until you are certain you have found a replacement for it, could be it doesn't fit you for whatever reason. I haven't spent much time at all shooting the bows your asking about, however the draw cycle a lot of times comes down to what you are familiar with. Certainly differences in draw cycles from bow to bow, however a lot of times it's just what you are use to.

I wouldn't worry very much about 80#. Most people I have seen their accuracy goes down the heavier they go, the difference in energy from 70-80 doesn't make up for poor shooting. If you can do it great. That's one place I feel like Mathews is ahead, you can put 60# mods on a bow to really get used to it, then order 70# or 75# mods to decide where you want to be. I elk hunted with 75# mods, dropped back to 65# once I got back east.

Why wouldn't you sell the vertix? I have a bow I am shooting this season, my diamond. After all of my Mission issues, and the fact I was still working on my 70lb draw (getting smooth with it), I chose it for the season. It shoots bullets - albeit as a non split limb bow I don't know how given the severe cam lean...

 

[wildernessmaster]

I have very similar tastes to you when it comes to bows. Right now I am shooting a Traverse with wake limbs for my western bow (33 ATA, 6.675 brace, 84 lbs) and a Halon 7 for midwest hunting (30 ATA, 7 brace, 70 lbs). I settled on Mathews after trying nearly every bow brand for about three years(owned about 30 different bows in that time). I really like the tuning system, draw cycle, and weight(I know they're heavy, I like that). I had a VXR this year as well but I would rather shoot the Traverse with heavy limbs than the VXR at 75lbs and I was more accurate with the Halon 7. The switch weight mods add some stiffness to the draw cycle in my opinion. It's not a ton but it's noticable when you shoot them side by side. I also just shoot longer brace height bows better, obviously they are more forgiving but I really appreciate the extra room when wearing bulky cold weather clothes.

This is just what I have settled on for me, I'm in no way suggesting that it's the only way to go. There are a lot of good bows out there right now, and likely some good ones about to be released.

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What tuning system on Matthews? Have I missed something on my bow?

 

[Billy Goat]

Why wouldn't you sell the vertix? I have a bow I am shooting this season, my diamond. After all of my Mission issues, and the fact I was still working on my 70lb draw (getting smooth with it), I chose it for the season. It shoots bullets - albeit as a non split limb bow I don't know how given the severe cam lean...

If you hate it sell it.

I'm thinking after you try several other bows you might realize you jumped from the frying pan I to the fire.

 

[Billy Goat]

What tuning system on Matthews? Have I missed something on my bow?

Mathews has a shim system they use called top hats. Allows you to shim the cams in proper increments.

The bowtech system looks to be better on paper, time will tell how it holds up.

 

[wildernessmaster]

If you hate it sell it.

I'm thinking after you try several other bows you might realize you jumped from the frying pan I to the fire.

Lol... What makes you say that? You a matthews guy?

 

[JustJustin]

They are, I prefer to shoot a bow bottomed out. Doesn't matter anything like it use to now, but with the SW you can go 50-75#

Defiant had a few cam issues. I had one, after ten years I washed my hands with Hoyt after all the headache I had from my turbo defiant. In my opinion Hoyt isn't what it used to be.

Curious what your "cam issue" was?

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[Billy Goat]

Lol... What makes you say that? You a matthews guy?

Just that the vertix is a good bow overall, it might not be perfect for you. When discussing having two bows I'd keep a hold of it and compare it head to head with something else before getting rid of it. Might be from personal experience that I know what it's like to regret getting rid of something.

 

[Billy Goat]

Curious what your "cam issue" was?

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I couldn't ever get the bow in tune. It started with the number 2 cam I believe, had issues with that. Hoyt sent me the revised 2.1 cam I believe. Only way I could get it to broadhead tune was top cam advanced about 3/16" I think it was. Can't remember for certain, it was a few years ago. Lost a lot of the valley, also couldn't quite get the horizontal correct. Still would impact slightly right with broadheads no matter what I did. If cams were in synch it wouldn't shoot a broadhead. I don't remember if I swapped limbs on it or not, I did have a limb split and had a whole new set sent out. Still had same problems.

This was a '16 carbon defiant turbo. Bow shot fieldpoints great. Maybe it was me. I had been shooting hoyts for the previous 9 years, spent 3 weeks trying to broadhead tune that thing, wouldn't do it with me shooting or a shooting machine. I decided it shouldn't be that hard.

The non turbos don't seem as bad.

Also was not impressed with the finish on the bow after waiting for 18 months, or however long it took to get it. Had it on order for over a year, was just very unimpressed once it came in. Turned good speeds tho.

 

[couesaddict13]

Personally I have owned and shot both Bowtech and PSE bows, and PSE’s have always shot and tunes better for me. Also the IBO’s on PSE bows in my experience ring more true than bowtech.

 

[Reburn]

So it sounds like you have 3 bows already.

This is what I do. I have 2 "primary" bows. Mathews vxr 31.5 and a hoyt rx3 ultra with #3 cams. I bought the mathews new and the hoyt used. Both bows are ready to hunt right now. I shoot both pretty much equally well. The edge in quiet goes to vxr the edge in accuracy goes to the hoyt. Since those 2 bows are setup ready to roll out I have a 3rd set of hardware for the new bow I'm testing which is a mathews traverse. If I decide to keep the traverse one of the other bows will roll out to the classifieds. If I dont like the 3rd bow better then my other 2 it rolls to the classifieds. That way I always have a primary and a back up primary.

If you already have 3 bows unless you just want to have a garage full of bows that are loosing money you need to pick the one of the 3 that you like the least and sell it. Then pick up a used bow on the AT classifieds or here and try it out.

 

[Reburn]

As far as bow selection. It doesnt much matter. I dont see the need to pull 80 lbs. Especially whitetail hunting out of a tree. I can really take advantage of a 80lb bow with a 31" draw. Like a 580 gr arrow going 280 if I was to put 80 lb limbs on my hoyt. If you want to try I say go for it. I kick the idea around frequently but have always deciced not to. IMO a 80lber out a tree stand would suck. Trying to draw straight back and smooth and quiet while deer are 30 yards away doesnt sound like fun. So that would make the 80lber almost useless as a backup for your 70.

I think you are smoking crack trying to find 2 bows that are really similar in short ata and long ata variations. Taking the cams of the traverse, vertix and vxr is really no big deal and you do that when you change the top hats to fix tears before you start tuning anyways. I would just shoot what you have. Go to a pro shop and try some bows. Find what you like and then wait for one to come for sale used. Then try it out and if it cant unseat one of your main 2 sell it.

 

[sndmn11]

80lbs is bananas unless you are hunting dangerous game AND like telling folks you did it with an 80lb bow.

I genuinely love how easy it is, and how immediately responsive, tuning with the dead lock cam is. I had a Traverse prior to my Reckoning and it opened my eyes to the shortfall of the top hat system when I wanted to move the cams. I do like the split yokes on my wife's bow, but that still requires a quick press; the deadlock is just two screws and you're done. The convenience of that affords playing around with things easily to see the result, with the peace of mind in knowing you can put it back in less than a minute.