Which magnum rifle

[Dfou]

This is probably more parenting advice you don't want, but spend the money on more range trips.

If you must buy another rifle, make it something they'll learn to use, not some stupid thing they'll think makes them cool but they won't even be competent to use.

While I understand what you're saying and can appreciate the advice, did I give the impression he's not competent or a proficient shot?
Not saying you directly, but it seems like alot people in this thread are against having more than one rifle. Do you own more than one? multiple calibers? multiple styles of rifle?
He likes to hunt, likes to shoot and likes guns. I can't for the life of me understand the "if you must buy another rifle" sentiment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the spirit of the comments

 

[Chris in TN]

While I understand what you're saying and can appreciate the advice, did I give the impression he's not competent or a proficient shot?

Yes. You said yourself that you don't do a lot of target shooting, and those of us here that *do* do a lot of target shooting, know that riflery is a very perishable skillset. Even for a teenager, and, yes, I was once a teenaged boy that got to do a heckuvalot of shooting, thanks to a grandpa that bought milsurp LC 30-06 and .308 for pennies back in the day.

 

[Steve300xcw]

but it seems like alot people in this thread are against having more than one rifle. Do you own more than one? multiple calibers? multiple styles of rifle?
He likes to hunt, likes to shoot and likes guns. I can't for the life of me understand the "if you must buy another rifle" sentiment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the spirit of the comments

Nobody here is against another rifle. They are against buying a rifle for a kid that is going to beat the shit out of him or requires a brake

 

[The Guide]

Ive never known anyone that dosnt like brakes due to noise… only read about it… Guns go bang regardless with either more or less recoil..a sharper or flatter noise…i switched to suppressors so dont use brakes any longer, the lack of air is the biggest benefit imop second is sound. Suppressors have negative effects though, chunks of carbon randomly fall free into chamber if not in a cleaning routine and can ruin your brass… ive had pieces get formed into shoulder of brass numerous times leading me to clean suppressor often…put your rifle on buttstock and move bolt back and fourth and pieces will fall onto bolt face.. not ideal, barrel takes more time to clean more often. The benefits outweigh the negatives for i so suppressed it is.

My tinnitus says I hate brakes because of the noise. I buy rifles with brakes to get threaded barrels and throw the brake in the trash. I replace the brake with a thread protector and will shoot it naked or suppressed. I use direct threaded suppressors and take them off after ever use. A couple of hard taps on the mounting surface on a piece of wood and a couple of blasts of compressed air down the bore and I've yet to have any issues with lose carbon effecting a rifle.

Jay

 

[greyghostnw]

Its not like your building a custom rifle. Who cares if he wants to change cartridge later. Part of learning in life is having an idea and expanding with it. Learning what to take from an experience and growing from it.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

This will mostly be a hunting rifle. We don’t do a lot of target shooting. But both of my boys enjoy going to the range and I would like to start going more

If I had asked my dad for a magnum rifle at 15, he would have picked one that he liked, because he knew that once I got over the cool factor, the cost of shooting it and the recoil would have made me pick something else soon enough.

Growing up, my parents encouraged us to save our birthday and Christmas present money to buy nice guns, but apart from .22 LR, we had to buy our own ammo. It wasn’t unusual for us to fire a box of .22 LR every day in the spring and summer.

But until we got old enough to start earning a pittance working on the farm (in high school and college, we made $1000 per summer - about $0.25/hour) we never had enough money for hunting ammo. We were definitely the kind of people who were expected to make a box of ammo last a decade. A couple of years ago, I finally tried firing the last box of .30-30 Winchester I bought at Walmart in 1994 for $5.99. Most of the cases split when I fired them. I feel like I learned a false economy there.

Of course, nowadays, I show my prowess by killing animals with weapons that the fudds - and my dad is possibly the fuddiest fudd that ever fudded - say aren’t powerful enough. It’s like they have forgotten that they used to kill deer with .30-30s and .243s until they got to the age where they were supposed to “graduate to a man’s rifle.” Once they got there, a 7mm RM was about the minimum needed for eastern Whitetails.

Anyway, how you parent is your business, but I would be trying to preach “proficiency” over “power.” My daughter has set her sights on shooting tighter groups than either of her male cousins. I’ll probably never have a son, but I will have a daughter who at least appreciates a straight shooter.

 

[The Guide]

I’d pick up another Seekins before getting a bergara

After watching 2 different friends have their rifles fail (both Bergara rifles, one standard HMR in 300 PRC and one Premier Carbon Fiber in 7mm PRC) and them then have to take my spare loaner rifle to finish their hunt (I make everyone who travels to hunt with me verify their rifle system at 300 yards and 500 yards to find their practical limit) in 2 separate years, I could never recommend anyone buy a Bergara rifle. It is sad because they really do have some visually appealing rifles with good features but the accuracy has been less than stellar.

Jay

 

[Steve300xcw]

fuddiest fudd that ever fudded - say aren’t powerful enough. It’s like they have forgotten that they used to kill deer with .30-30s and .243s until they got to the age where they were supposed to “graduate to a man’s rifle.” Once they got there, a 7mm RM was about the minimum needed for eastern Whitetails.

My 'old man will flinch when he hears about hunting with a 223. Tumbling bullets an all that. He never had a problem killing shit with a 40cal patched round ball though

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Shoot whatever you want and try to learn things while doing so. Or use others experience and advice and see how that works. Or try both.

Since he’s very young and if he’s got an itch for another cool gun, I’ll always recommend what works the best when tested side by side in hunting weight guns.

Fast 6mms and 22s shooting good bullets have the highest repeated hit rates on targets in the mountains when tested by shooters of all skill levels in hunting simulated shot scenarios.

For that reason I’ll always recommend a 6 Creeemoor or 22 Creedmoor. 6.5 is fun as well but right around 6.5 PRC level of recoil is where we start to see way more rodeos in lightweight hunting guns that barely get shot in hunting terrain.

For the most recent example, 4 missed shots last week hunting coues deer were all lightweight guns in 6.5 and above. With good ballistics calls (dialing) and wind calls (holding) to within 2-3 MPH (as good as wind calling really gets in the mountains).

2 kills with 6 creed at 504 and 543. 2 more kills, one with a 6.5mm that weighs around 11 lbs and a 7mm that also weighs around 12 lbs I believe.

Set him up for success… If he does want a “magnum” get it setup properly with good stock geometry, good supressor, and ensure the gun is heavy enough. Have him practice real hunting shots and get off the bench or flat range

As you grow and learn as a mountain shooter you start to see patterns of what is working and what isn’t. 12” gongs in the mountains during off season training are what tell the real story. Don’t forget to remember your misses and take notes (we seem to always remember our hits and then think we are better than we are).

 

[Dfou]

If you're near me, I'll let him shoot either my 300WM or 338WM.

I'm old I suppose in a young man's eyes, but with modern bullets chosen correctly there's little advantage in big magnum cartridges. I have worn the finish off my 338 twice, it's very accurate, and effective, but not pleasant or necessary. Same for the 300 though it does offer some gain for long range.

Thanks for offer but I'm a long ways away. South Louisiana

Yes. You said yourself that you don't do a lot of target shooting, and those of us here that *do* do a lot of target shooting, know that riflery is a very perishable skillset. Even for a teenager, and, yes, I was once a teenaged boy that got to do a heckuvalot of shooting, thanks to a grandpa that bought milsurp LC 30-06 and .308 for pennies back in the day.

Correct. We don't do alot of shooting compared to alot of people on this forum. However we shoot enough for him to be proficient and competent. I've probably had more formal training than most so when we do go to the range it's productive practice. Some people forget that just because you shoot alot that doesn't mean you're improving. You can also be just reinforcing bad habits. So if i gave the impression he's not competent I apologize, that's not what I meant to do.

 

[The Guide]

My 'old man will flinch when he hears about hunting with a 223. Tumbling bullets an all that. He never had a problem killing shit with a 40cal patched round ball though

My father (born in '34) said there were 2 cartridges that were worth a damn. The 270 Winchester was a good deer and antelope round and the 338WM was the one for elk. The only rifle with buying was a Winchester M70. He had two pre '64 M70 rifles in 270 Winchester. One scoped and one with open sights.

When he was in his early 80's he mentioned that he would like to get one more elk hunt in before he couldn't get around anymore. I mentioned that I had a 6CM he could use. That started an hour long tirade about how the 243 was an antelope and coyote cartridge and he wasn't wounding no elk with a 6mm bullet. I miss his old ass...

Jay

 

[eric1115]

If I were in your shoes, I would lean in hard to practicing a lot more before buying a new rifle. I'm guessing, so please let me know if I'm off here, but if most of your practice sessions are paper at 100 yd off a bench the most noticeable benefit of a light recoiling rifle is that it is more comfortable and pleasant to shoot. For a teenager that benefit is unimportant since I am so tough. Immune to pain really. I understand why those soft sissies like their little rifles, but that's not for me.

Start shooting steel at longer distances, and seeing your own impact through the scope, and shooting 50 plus round practice sessions, and doing following practice drill, and I think he will go into the decision better informed.

If I were in your situation, I think my answer to him would be two parts.
Part one, this is a perfect opportunity to learn about epistemology (figuring out how closely our beliefs and our confidence in our beliefs are correlated with the evidence for those beliefs?) what are his goals in terms of what he wants the rifle to be able to do? What specifically does his current rifle not do that he hopes the new one will? Does he have the skills to take advantage of that increased capacity? Is a heavy recoiling, $3+ per shot rifle the best way to build those skills?

Part 2, I'd be inclined to make a deal with him. He needs to shoot 500 rounds out of his 7mm-08 and 100 rounds out of the heaviest recoiling rifle you can get your hands on, this coming spring, from field positions (not off sandbags at the bench). Have him look at his best Form drill score with each and decide if a magnum is actually the tool that will help him achieve his goals. Maybe a new stock and a can for his current rifle (and/or something like a 6.5CM that is cheaper to feed) will satisfy the itch for something new and sexy AND actually help him be a better marksman.

Thread 'Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting' https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/

 

[TaperPin]

The kid already has a smaller cartridge if he needs it. I don’t see anything wrong with something bigger if he shoots everything with it or never shoots it once. The fun police are busy at high schools apparently.

A friend in HS was short and weighed 130 lbs soaking wet, but ended up with a KX 500 shortly after they came out. He loved that bike and everyone around him knew he would be better off with something he could physically handle better, but who cares, he loved it. It was a toy played with for the joy of playing with toys. Our guns are just toys, who cares if you drive a Tonka dump truck or fancy pants Ertl with a roll off bed.

 

[Dfou]

Nobody here is against another rifle. They are against buying a rifle for a kid that is going to beat the shit out of him or requires a brake

I guess I wasn't able to decipher that they meant buy a different rifle then the ones you asked about from responses like "tell him no" or "if you must buy another rifle" But that's why I started the thread to see If people thought that specific rifle in a 300 or 7prc would "beat the shit out of him" and if they had any other suggestions. Which some people have given

 

[Dfou]

After watching 2 different friends have their rifles fail (both Bergara rifles, one standard HMR in 300 PRC and one Premier Carbon Fiber in 7mm PRC) and them then have to take my spare loaner rifle to finish their hunt (I make everyone who travels to hunt with me verify their rifle system at 300 yards and 500 yards to find their practical limit) in 2 separate years, I could never recommend anyone buy a Bergara rifle. It is sad because they really do have some visually appealing rifles with good features but the accuracy has been less than stellar.

Jay

I've read several "problem" threads with Bergara rifles which concerns me. The issues your friends had were accuracy related? or other issues with the rifles?

 

[Chris in TN]

Correct. We don't do alot of shooting compared to alot of people on this forum. However we shoot enough for him to be proficient and competent. I've probably had more formal training than most so when we do go to the range it's productive practice. Some people forget that just because you shoot alot that doesn't mean you're improving. You can also be just reinforcing bad habits. So if i gave the impression he's not competent I apologize, that's not what I meant to do.

Nobody's saying that all shooting is improvement. But you mentioning that is sort of a dodge.

I'm simply saying that when you tell me how great a shot you are then tell me you don't practice much, I am going to believe *one* of those to be true.

 

[Dfou]

If I were in your shoes, I would lean in hard to practicing a lot more before buying a new rifle. I'm guessing, so please let me know if I'm off here, but if most of your practice sessions are paper at 100 yd off a bench the most noticeable benefit of a light recoiling rifle is that it is more comfortable and pleasant to shoot. For a teenager that benefit is unimportant since I am so tough. Immune to pain really. I understand why those soft sissies like their little rifles, but that's not for me.

Start shooting steel at longer distances, and seeing your own impact through the scope, and shooting 50 plus round practice sessions, and doing following practice drill, and I think he will go into the decision better informed.

If I were in your situation, I think my answer to him would be two parts.
Part one, this is a perfect opportunity to learn about epistemology (figuring out how closely our beliefs and our confidence in our beliefs are correlated with the evidence for those beliefs?) what are his goals in terms of what he wants the rifle to be able to do? What specifically does his current rifle not do that he hopes the new one will? Does he have the skills to take advantage of that increased capacity? Is a heavy recoiling, $3+ per shot rifle the best way to build those skills?

Part 2, I'd be inclined to make a deal with him. He needs to shoot 500 rounds out of his 7mm-08 and 100 rounds out of the heaviest recoiling rifle you can get your hands on, this coming spring, from field positions (not off sandbags at the bench). Have him look at his best Form drill score with each and decide if a magnum is actually the tool that will help him achieve his goals. Maybe a new stock and a can for his current rifle (and/or something like a 6.5CM that is cheaper to feed) will satisfy the itch for something new and sexy AND actually help him be a better marksman.

Thread 'Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting' https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/

Solid advice. Part of this and why he has been shooting my 257 wby is because his 7-08 isn't extremely accurate (very short crack barrel). So I think a new rifle he likes and is an upgrade will further his interest in hunting and shooting.

 

[wapitibob]

Again, thanks for the parenting advice but why would I. There’s no reason to. It’s almost like you didn’t read my initial question. It wasn’t should I tell him yes or no, it was will a 7prc be a better option than a 300 win mag

Yes, the 7PRC will be a better option.

 

[Dfou]

Nobody's saying that all shooting is improvement. But you mentioning that is sort of a dodge.

I'm simply saying that when you tell me how great a shot you are then tell me you don't practice much, I am going to believe *one* of those to be true.

I can understand that thinking. It's not a dodge at all just an explanation how both statements can be true. Can he be better? 100%. Is he competent and proficient? In my opinion yes. Maybe he's not in your opinion but now we're talking opinions lol.
Let me ask you this, If you're rifle was a 2 moa rifle that was also simply too small and not a good physical fit for you, would you want a new one? Do you think it wise to start with a more capable (talking fit and accuracy) rifle to avoid the frustrations that can come with one that isn't to be a good idea? especially for a "young" shooter?

 

[Chris in TN]

I can understand that thinking. It's not a dodge at all just an explanation how both statements can be true. Can he be better? 100%. Is he competent and proficient? In my opinion yes. Maybe he's not in your opinion but now we're talking opinions lol.
Let me ask you this, If you're rifle was a 2 moa rifle that was also simply too small and not a good physical fit for you, would you want a new one? Do you think it wise to start with a more capable (talking fit and accuracy) rifle to avoid the frustrations that can come with one that isn't to be a good idea? especially for a "young" shooter?

My kids and I do a lot of 0-500 shooting in the last few months with a rifle that's a hair too small for me (it's a youth model and I'm 6') and is probably a 1.250-1.5moa shooter. But the light recoil allows all 4 of us to shoot the same rifle.

Would I want a rifle that was capable of better than 2moa mechanical accuracy? Yes. I'll freely concede that. As for fitment, I've found that too long a stock is a hindrance to my kids but too short (by perhaps an inch?) isn't a serious hindrance to me, at least with a lower recoiling rifle.

My overall stance here isn't necessarily that a new rifle is bad - everyone likes new toys and you know what you can afford better than we do and you know the limits of his existing stuff - my point is just that buying a magnum rifle might be fun in a sense, and there's merit in that, I've had my share of recoil fun over the years and grew up with a .378 Weatherby and .416 Rigby at my disposal for a lot of years - but if you want your kid to grow in his skillset as a rifleman under field conditions, recoil isn't your friend, and somewhere around maybe the 6.5PRC level of recoil, the extra power a teenager might think he wants, starts to get counterproductive, and I would place large wagers on your kid, a year from now with a 7PRC or .300PRC level of new rifle, being outshot by some other kid with a moderately fast 6mm or 6.5mm.

Let your son read this thread. Then give him a few days to think it over. Then do what he wants. Buying him too much recoil won't likely ruin his life. I've certainly made worse mistakes and life will go on.