When to throw in the towel on a load development

[ndayton]

I am new to reloading and have been loading for a 300 winmag using 77gr H1000 and 212gr ELDx, ran a pressure and velocity test without issue to max 77.6 and settled on 77gr for a velocity node. However seating depth test has me frustrated as the best I can get is 1.1 with the norm being 1.5-2.5 moa.
I started .020 off the lands and worked backwards in .010 increments until I was at SAMI spec on COAL, bullet seating depth was measured by the ogive to ensure consistent seating depth.
I don't want to throw in the towel on H1000 as it was hard to get my hands on it and it gives great velocities but when I did the exact same process as above with H4831 the seating depth test was night and day as most groups averaged .5-.8 with the worst being 1.5 moa.
Since H4831 just seems to work with this load and supplies are limited I dont want to waste more shots chasing accuracy unless there is something I am missing or other tricks to try.
Thanks

 

[LaHunter]

Do a search for old posts from Broz. He used to be active on this site and shared a lot of good info on the 300 win mag. He is a good source of real world info. If I recall correctly, H1000 was his preferred powder, as it is for many 300 WM shooters. Maybe your bullet choice is the issue?

 

[archp625]

Are you getting vertical or horizontal spread on groups? What rifle? Twist? Trigger? Shooting history?

 

[4ester]

Do a search for old posts from Broz. He used to be active on this site and shared a lot of good info on the 300 win mag. He is a good source of real world info. If I recall correctly, H1000 was his preferred powder, as it is for many 300 WM shooters. Maybe your bullet choice is the issue?

Broz is still active on his own forum.... Long Range Only


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ndayton]

Are you getting vertical or horizontal spread on groups? What rifle? Twist? Trigger? Shooting history?

no pattern really as far as stringing usually I will have 3 shots of 4 shots at MOA with one opening it up to 1.5-2.5 moa and there is no sequence to the "flyer" could be the first shot or 3rd. As far as the gun its a Xbolt long range 1-8 twist factory trigger with aftermarket trigger spring, gun has always shot about 1 moa with factory ammo and currently seems to shoot sub moa with H4831 and the same 212 ELDx bullets.

 

[bsnedeker]

I've never had luck using velocity nodes to find the best load. I've found harmonic tuning to be much more reliable. It takes a lot more shooting but once you find the sweet spot for your barrel harmonics I've found my loads to be much more consistent in regards to POI even if I can't get a great ES.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[MtnW]

I would try some Nosler 200gr Partitions with your .300 Win Mag and H1000. Mine shoots lights out with that combination. Velocity is @2900fps. I would try other bullet options before giving up on the H1000

 

[CApighunter]

I’d try some hammer bullets. They cured my picky 280AI. I struggled with a long time to find a handload it liked but the hammers have been stupidly easy to get dialed in for the 3 rifles I’ve used them in.

 

[archp625]

How many rounds down the barrel? Something is going on and something is changing.

 

[hereinaz]

How many rounds down the barrel? Something is going on and something is changing.

That's one question I have as well, if the other load shot well. Is there something with the barrel going on? With the same bullet, it will usually shoot the same if you match velocity and jump pretty close. Testing "velocity nodes" really is testing pressure, so if you match the pressure closely, it should shoot the same or similar. What do you mean by "velocity node"?

Is it getting copper fouling? Have you shot any solid copper bullets? Is there carbon building in the throat and barrel?

What about the brass and brass prep process, anything there that could have changed?

 

[ndayton]

How many rounds down the barrel? Something is going on and something is changing.

The barrel has around 350 rounds through it estimated. I'm almost wondering if its a barrel harmonics issue like @bsnedeker was saying, H4831 with the same bullet seems to have no issues.

 

[archp625]

The barrel has around 350 rounds through it estimated. I'm almost wondering if its a barrel harmonics issue like @bsnedeker was saying, H4831 with the same bullet seems to have no issues.

350 is good and broke in. What I was worried about what you found a speed node then your barrel sped up and you jumped out of that node. Can you post your grains of powder per speed at 0.020" off the lands?

 

[ndayton]

That's one question I have as well, if the other load shot well. Is there something with the barrel going on? With the same bullet, it will usually shoot the same if you match velocity and jump pretty close. Testing "velocity nodes" really is testing pressure, so if you match the pressure closely, it should shoot the same or similar. What do you mean by "velocity node"?

Is it getting copper fouling? Have you shot any solid copper bullets? Is there carbon building in the throat and barrel?

What about the brass and brass prep process, anything there that could have changed?

Again new to reloading so I may be using YouTube lingo but velocity node meaning a powder charge that if you were +/- on the charge weight there wouldn't be a significant change in velocity. Brass prep is Hornady 1x fired brass from the same rifle wet tumbled lubed and FL resized, trimmed if over 2.610 de-burred.
I did clean the rifle bore before testing but didn't remove all the copper fouling before testing as I haven't found it to effect accuracy before with factory ammo.
Currently the barrel has had the copper fouling cleaned but I haven't shot it yet. I will also note the H4831 is loaded at Hornady max listed where the H1000 is not.

 

[ndayton]

Can you post your grains of powder per speed at 0.020" off the lands?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking are you wanting the test results from testing pressure? I didn't chrono when testing seating depth as I use a magneto speed on the barrel and didn't want to introduce that variable.

 

[hereinaz]

The barrel has around 350 rounds through it estimated. I'm almost wondering if its a barrel harmonics issue like @bsnedeker was saying, H4831 with the same bullet seems to have no issues.

Try working up so the bullet is at the same velocity with both powders. Many times, the velocity node is the same for all powders.

As far as cleaning, if this barrel only has 350, then maybe you haven't tested this barrel to see what cleaning might do to affect it. Maybe you need to clean copper more frequently with this rifle. If you have a carbon ring, that can change pressure and make loads shoot funky. If you haven't tested that, then give it a try. What rifle is it? Is it a factory barrel? Have you returned to shoot any of the 4831 loads to see if they are still shooting good?

If you are getting "flyers" with this one, is there something mental or something you have changed up since switching powders? A bipod, rear bag, scope, etc? Have you checked to see that the actions screws are torqued? Did you take the rifle apart when you cleaned it and maybe didn't get it seated against the recoil lug?

I would say don't keep wasting bullets on H1000 until you can confirm that the baseline accuracy of the rifle has not changed. If you shoot a few with the 4831, you might find the rifle's accuracy has gone to crap.

Reloading and load development is about controlling variables. Maybe it doesn't like H1000, and giving up is the best thing to do. Sounds like you have tried to be methodical about developing this load, and sticking with what works is best.

But, before you give up or you spend more bullets on load dev, you need to go back to a baseline to rule out other possible causes. From my experience and my rifles, if it shoots with a bullet, then using different powders is usually about getting to the right "velocity node" where the pressure curve is such that the =/- doesn't blow ES.

 

[LaHunter]

Try working up so the bullet is at the same velocity with both powders. Many times, the velocity node is the same for all powders.

As far as cleaning, if this barrel only has 350, then maybe you haven't tested this barrel to see what cleaning might do to affect it. Maybe you need to clean copper more frequently with this rifle. If you have a carbon ring, that can change pressure and make loads shoot funky. If you haven't tested that, then give it a try. What rifle is it? Is it a factory barrel? Have you returned to shoot any of the 4831 loads to see if they are still shooting good?

If you are getting "flyers" with this one, is there something mental or something you have changed up since switching powders? A bipod, rear bag, scope, etc? Have you checked to see that the actions screws are torqued? Did you take the rifle apart when you cleaned it and maybe didn't get it seated against the recoil lug?

I would say don't keep wasting bullets on H1000 until you can confirm that the baseline accuracy of the rifle has not changed. If you shoot a few with the 4831, you might find the rifle's accuracy has gone to crap.

Reloading and load development is about controlling variables. Maybe it doesn't like H1000, and giving up is the best thing to do. Sounds like you have tried to be methodical about developing this load, and sticking with what works is best.

But, before you give up or you spend more bullets on load dev, you need to go back to a baseline to rule out other possible causes. From my experience and my rifles, if it shoots with a bullet, then using different powders is usually about getting to the right "velocity node" where the pressure curve is such that the =/- doesn't blow ES.

Good advise, especially with the current availability of reloading components.

 

[ndayton]

Try working up so the bullet is at the same velocity with both powders. Many times, the velocity node is the same for all powders.

As far as cleaning, if this barrel only has 350, then maybe you haven't tested this barrel to see what cleaning might do to affect it. Maybe you need to clean copper more frequently with this rifle. If you have a carbon ring, that can change pressure and make loads shoot funky. If you haven't tested that, then give it a try. What rifle is it? Is it a factory barrel? Have you returned to shoot any of the 4831 loads to see if they are still shooting good?

If you are getting "flyers" with this one, is there something mental or something you have changed up since switching powders? A bipod, rear bag, scope, etc? Have you checked to see that the actions screws are torqued? Did you take the rifle apart when you cleaned it and maybe didn't get it seated against the recoil lug?

I would say don't keep wasting bullets on H1000 until you can confirm that the baseline accuracy of the rifle has not changed. If you shoot a few with the 4831, you might find the rifle's accuracy has gone to crap.

Reloading and load development is about controlling variables. Maybe it doesn't like H1000, and giving up is the best thing to do. Sounds like you have tried to be methodical about developing this load, and sticking with what works is best.

But, before you give up or you spend more bullets on load dev, you need to go back to a baseline to rule out other possible causes. From my experience and my rifles, if it shoots with a bullet, then using different powders is usually about getting to the right "velocity node" where the pressure curve is such that the =/- doesn't blow ES.

The barrel is a 26inch factory barrel that is now cleaned down to the metal so it should be free of carbon and copper fouling I don't have a bore scope but I would think if you are getting copper out of the rifling then it should clean out a carbon ring in the throat if there was one.
I am shooting with the same rest and rear bad that I always use and I did not disassemble the rifle to clean it however I did recheck the torque on my action screws and they were good.
H4831 H1000
68.9-2717 | 74.8-2773
69.3-2724 | 75.1-2824
69.7-2747 | 75.4-2813
70.1-2768 | 75.7-2816
70.5-2782 | 76.1-2840
70.9-2797 | 76.4-2864
71.3-2824 | 76.7-2864
71.7-2844 | 77.0-2865
72.1-2867 | 77.3-2868
72.5-2858 | 77.6-2892

I have listed the range data I have recorded and will do another range session with the clean barrel to confirm accuracy with the H4831, I will also load some H1000 but at a lighter charge weight do you have a suggestion on what I should drop it to, I was thinking 76.3 grains?

 

[Zappaman]

If you haven't tried it: Often a primer brand change can fix things. Also check case lengths against your factory stuff shooting great. Last, you may also try a neck sizer or just "bump" your neck a touch when re-sizing Vs. a full case re-sizing. Maybe you've tried these, just some thoughts anyway. Hang in there!

 

[Don Qui Puncher]

I couldn’t get the 215’s to shoot with different powders and primers so I switched to the 208 and 212’s. I settled on the 208’s because I found more of them and with 76 grains of H1000 .02 off I was just under 1 inch with fed 215m primer I switched to cci 250 and my groups and ES shrunk. I averaged 2977 with an ES of 19. What primers are you using?

 

[Zappaman]

I also like the CCI 250 with slower burning powders like H1000. I reload my heavier 7mm RM loads (180g) with a mil-surp powder (WC857- 50cal tracer pull-down powder) that burns similar to H1000 and that was the goto primer there also.