When to neck size?

[35WhelenAI]

For hunting loads, use a full length sizer and start by sizing the neck a bit at a time and eventually it's going to touch the shoulder/case body. Continue lowering the sizing die a bit at a time, set the sizing die at the point those rounds chamber reliably in your rifle. I typically chamber rounds by rotating them 90° at a time to be sure they feed no matter how they sit in the magazine. For target shooting, a bit of resistance is not an issue, however for hunting you get one wrong and it's an issue. Park BS argumentative attitudes at the door fellas, if this is where you need to compare size it's ridiculous. Predictable who shows up with that in most cases.

 

[Harvey_NW]

You might still get some case stretch after pulling the expander up. Better would be to pull the expander and use a mandrel.

I've heard of it but never had it happen, but I have had what I mentioned. Let me just say running a case through a sizing die and having it come out longer will make you scratch your head and question things!

 

[35WhelenAI]

Lube the inside of the case neck and stretch minimizes. I use a nylon cleaning brush with a thin cotton patch wrapped around it coated in dry graphite. A small ziploc bag with dry graphite is a great place to dip the brush to keep it coated consistently. Case stretch can be and is part of the game depending on what your goal is for sizing and the purpose of the rounds.

 

[mlevimadden]

Can you share the materials you sourced your assertion from that competitors these days are overwhelmingly full length resizing after every shot?

If you are neck sizing for a few initial shots or so until you feel positive headspace - cases touching the chamber shoulder while closing the bolt, I can assure you that all else being equal, you won't experience feeding issues if you then bump the shoulder back .02-03 instead of full length resizing the brass.

In several years of reading multiple forums, listening to shooting podcasts, watching YouTube reloading tutorials, and shooting matches, I have yet to come across a top shooter that is neck sizing. Even the old benchrest guys like Cortina and Glasscock FL size now.

If you know a top NRL shooter who is sharing information that they are neck sizing I’m happy to learn and hear their reasoning for why.

I’m sure you don’t have any feeding issues bumping headspace by 20-30 thousandths but that’s definitely an excessive amount that would require a thinner shell holder for most my dies to actually achieve and will definitely affect brass life.

What terminology would you use to diferentiate pushing the shoulder all the way back to starting length vs moving it minimally once a case is fully expanded?

Factory ammo and virgin brass is usually made to below SAAMI minimum dimensions, so I guess I would call it sizing below SAAMI minimum.

I don’t know of anyone doing that for precision bolt rifle applications but maybe some guys are doing it for 223 brass they want to shoot in both their bolt gun and an AR or something.

None of my reloading buddies strictly neck size anymore. The last holdout who is usually the last to accept anything new finally had a round not be able to chamber on a hunt a couple years ago and saw the light.

I’m not trying to attack neck sizing, I was just trying to give the OP some information on the pros and cons.

 

[RME]

I've heard of it but never had it happen, but I have had what I mentioned. Let me just say running a case through a sizing die and having it come out longer will make you scratch your head and question things!

I've never had cases lengthen (that I know of anyway) from the expander ball either. Not saying it can't happen, just that I haven't seen it. It's possible people may be attributing case lengthening to the expander ball when it's actually the body being squeezed.

FWIW, with new brass or whenever the case has yet to completely fill the chamber, I like the measure a bunch of cases to find the handful with the longest datum length. Then set the FL die to just push the shoulder forward on those longest cases. Repeat the process if need be on the second firing and usually that's enough for a good case fit to the chamber.

 

[35WhelenAI]

The above post is good food for thought. A guy could remove the expander ball from the equation with a full length die, see if the case lengthens the same amount, or none at all, or somewhere in between.

 

[Castle Rock]

OK.

The point of only neck sizing for a couple of firings is to let the brass get fully sized to the chamber. After letting the brass become fully expanded to the chamber, then the resize is meant to be minimal - about .02 back from fulll chamber size - which is commonly referred to as a shoulder bump. Especially on belted magnums, full length resizing after not sizing at all for a few firings is what caused your brass deformation issues.

You are doing a great job explaining stuff here, well done.
I hope to get back to this thread soon, but it is a really busy time for me now

 

[Axlrod]

Can you share the materials you sourced your assertion from that competitors these days are overwhelmingly full length resizing after every shot?

If you are neck sizing for a few initial shots or so until you feel positive headspace - cases touching the chamber shoulder while closing the bolt, I can assure you that all else being equal, you won't experience feeding issues if you then bump the shoulder back .02-03 instead of full length resizing the brass.

Not that it could be done with a standard die, but if you push the shoulder back .02-.03 it would ruin the brass.

 

[Choupique]

I know my expander is definitely stretching the brass when I have to waylay the handle to get it pulled out

My old .375 h&h used to be the worse to get set up correctly. Those things would stretch a mile. The amount of case taper seems to contribute a lot

 

[RME]

I know my expander is definitely stretching the brass when I have to waylay the handle to get it pulled out

If it’s that difficult the expander ball may be too high up in the die. If the ball is too close to the top of the die it can put the neck in a bind. Maybe try lowering the ball so there’s more room for the neck to clear the die before engaging the ball.

 

[Choupique]

I always suspected it was my half-assed lubricating practices but thats a good point, I should try that.

 

[KyleR1985]

I have a pile of once fired sized LC brass I bought from Sages reloading.

I had a bunch of misfires when fireforming for 223ai. Measured and realized that they are sizing these cases way down - I assume to make sure they’ll always feed and chamber in a gas gun.

So I’m sending them through the 223’s first, then neck sizing the fired brass with a Lee collet die. Once I’ve fired them twice through the 223ai, I full length size.


So there is another use case for neck sizing.

 

[Balderdash]

In several years of reading multiple forums, listening to shooting podcasts, watching YouTube reloading tutorials, and shooting matches, I have yet to come across a top shooter that is neck sizing. Even the old benchrest guys like Cortina and Glasscock FL size now.

If you know a top NRL shooter who is sharing information that they are neck sizing I’m happy to learn and hear their reasoning for why.

I’m sure you don’t have any feeding issues bumping headspace by 20-30 thousandths but that’s definitely an excessive amount that would require a thinner shell holder for most my dies to actually achieve and will definitely affect brass life.

Factory ammo and virgin brass is usually made to below SAAMI minimum dimensions, so I guess I would call it sizing below SAAMI minimum.

I don’t know of anyone doing that for precision bolt rifle applications but maybe some guys are doing it for 223 brass they want to shoot in both their bolt gun and an AR or something.

None of my reloading buddies strictly neck size anymore. The last holdout who is usually the last to accept anything new finally had a round not be able to chamber on a hunt a couple years ago and saw the light.

I’m not trying to attack neck sizing, I was just trying to give the OP some information on the pros and cons.

My mistake on the amount of shoulder bump; seems I left off a 0 after the decimal. I've done that before in print. I'll watch my statements more closely for accuracy.

Perhaps my reloading lexicon is antiquated or just off from the terminology in common use these days. To me, Full Length Sizing is taking brass back to where it started for length dimensions, as in "full length", versus what I would call a Shoulder Bump, which would be allowing a case to first fully form to the chamber and then minimally sizing off of that measurement, which generally leaves at least a portion of the case not fully engaged in the sizing die.

In any case, my neck only sizing is limited to only one or a couple of firings when initially shooting new brass; I wouldn't say I "neck size only" for any cartridges as a matter of course. I do use a collet die or mandrel for neck sizing for my bolt guns, so its always its own process, but once brass is fully sized, it gets a shoulder bump with a body or bushing die every loading cycle. For gassers, levers, and my 7600's, I load with standard dies and generally full length size after every firing.

 

[Balderdash]

Not that it could be done with a standard die, but if you push the shoulder back .02-.03 it would ruin the brass.

Yes, my mistake. Meant to state .002. I use Redding competition shell holders, which bump in .002 increments.

 

[RME]

So there is another use case for neck sizing.

There was a time when I was big on using a Lee collet die in conjunction with a Redding body die. The end product was a FL sized case but still a use for a neck.

When I was still a small sample reloader I was also a big fan of an arbor press and Wilson neck dies for loading at the range. There’s something wonderfully simple and enjoyable about loading with a set of hand dies. Although that was a matter of convenience for that application. At home those cases went back on a press and sized with a FL die.

So I guess in my mind there’s two separate questions. Is there a place for neck dies in modern reloading? IMO yes. For certain things they’re a viable option. For general reloading purposes is a neck die a better option than a FL die. IMO no. For the vast majority of reloading tasks a FL die is superior.

 

[Harvey_NW]

The above post is good food for thought. A guy could remove the expander ball from the equation with a full length die, see if the case lengthens the same amount, or none at all, or somewhere in between.

That's exactly how I ended up figuring it out and confirming it wasn't the ball pulling shoulders out. But I also polish my expanders down to .003" under bullet diameter for more neck tension, so there's much less interference on expansion anyway.

 

[streamerfish]

Y'all like to get out in the weeds with word and phrase usage....

Neck sizing only - Done by dies designed to only size the neck (duh) not done by most top level F class shooters, and most other disciplines that require using the magazine and reliability. And not really done by too many top BR guys anymore either.

FL sizing - Done by dies designed to size the neck, shoulder, body, base etc of the case.

NOW.....Different FL dies work in different ways, have different tolerances, adjustments etc. You can use a full length sizing die and potentially only size the neck and the shoulder slightly, in simplistic terms, if the rest of the brass is inside the tolerances of the die, or the setup of the die, then it isn't going to be "sized" because it hasn't expanded enough to need to be sized.

Most F class shooters, based on what I read and seen, basically have a system between their FL dies, brass, and chamber built up. They do use full length sizing dies, and those dies size everything when its needed. They just have their system dialed in to where the brass is only "worked" enough to resize to reliability.

So yeah, they run their brass through a full length resizer, but the die may not actually resize every spot on the case, because the brass may be within tolerance.

 

[waspocrew]

I used to neck size brass until it'd get a little tight to chamber, then full length size. Now, I pretty much always just full length size.

Either way - I check my ammo for function before heading out into the hills.

 

[35WhelenAI]

That's exactly how I ended up figuring it out and confirming it wasn't the ball pulling shoulders out. But I also polish my expanders down to .003" under bullet diameter for more neck tension, so there's much less interference on expansion anyway.

I like that. I measure fired cases from the 35 Whelen AI, and they don't appear to have grown. However after sizing just enough to touch the case/shoulder to chamber smoothly (that sizes about 3/4 length or a bit more of the neck, plenty to grip the bullet) and pulling the expander through, they always lengthen just a bit. Now I know it's the sizing not the expanding.

 

[EastHumboldt]

The whole problem IMO with FL sizing is that the specs reduce the size of your cartridge to the smallest dimension that will fit every chamber of that caliber. If your chamber is on the large side, bang, automatic sloppy head spacing. My experience has been that full length sizing caused my brass to grow in length pretty fast, meaning I had to trim necks more often. This was for 30-06, .243, and 7-08. Five different Tikkas and one browning. Probably about 1200 rounds total. I think it’s a safe assumption that if the brass is growing in length, it’s stretching the case and is not good for case life.

My current procedure is to cycle every piece of fire formed brass that I’m planning on reloading through the rifle it came out of. If the bolt closes easily, I just neck size, check length and trim as needed. I’m currently not doing a lot of trimming because it’s not required. and only run that brass in the rifle it came out of. I anneal after every 3 firings.

If the bolt closes hard or won’t close at all, I run it through a body only die to bump the shoulders. Cycle it through the rifle again to check fit, Check length and trim if needed. Then neck size.

I like the Lee collet die for neck sizing because it does touch the body except at the shell holder, and only sizes the neck. It does not have an expander ball, but uses a straight mandrel, and you can use the standard mandrel that comes with the die, or order an .003 undersized one if you like more neck tension.

As far as chambers being exact from one rifle to the next, my brothers Tikka 30-06 would not chamber my fire formed brass, but mine would chamber his brass easily. so my chamber is obviously a tiny bit bigger than his. The reverse is true with our Tikka 7-08’s…. my chamber is smaller than his.

I’ve only been reloading for about three years so still kind of a newb. This is just my experience and others may have had different experience of course. YMMV.

I fully concur that every single round you take into the field should be run through your gun to check for ease of chambering.