When is using a Prefit barrel the right option

[ckleeves]

There are some crazy accurate prefits out there and there are some crazy accurate gunsmith chambered barrels. There are also plenty of garbage barrels out there from both sources.

Barrels are a little bit like picking a puppy out you can do all the homework in the world and sometimes you get one that just doesn’t hunt.

 

[Article 4]

Just a broad statement.

There are some crazy accurate prefits out there and there are some crazy accurate gunsmith chambered barrels. There are also plenty of garbage barrels out there from both sources.

Barrels are a little bit like picking a puppy out you can do all the homework in the world and sometimes you get one that just doesn’t hunt.

Most of the prefits I see are done by gunsmiths, not barrel makers. TS Customs, Stuteville Precision, Blue Mountain Precision, Southern Precision Rifles (aka Bugholes ), LRI, and most well known rifle builders can do prefits. Yes, Proof does their own prefits but that's by no means the majority of the market.

You aren't necessarily restricted to SAAMI chambers with prefits. I just ordered one last week and I had the choice (for a 6CM) to either go with a SAAMI chamber or a 0.135 freebore. My guess is to some extent smiths who do prefits would be able to accommodate you.

Again refer to the list above of all the very well known gunsmiths that do prefit barrels. Do I have confidence in them? Yes I do.

I'm not convinced you can't choose your own reamer from a gunsmith like LRI or other custom rifle builders. I'd bet you can.

If the action is the sort with tight enough tolerances to take a prefit, is that miniscule difference (real or imagined) really big enough to affect your precision for hunting purposes? If you were trying to set the 1000 yard benchrest record sure, but I think there are practical limits to what people actually need.

Why would that be more consistent? Just order a prefit in the cartridge you're shooting currently and throw it on when your existing barrel goes.

Benchrest shooters also use barrel tuners despite there being no body of evidence showing they work. And how well do your goals actually line up with benchrest shooter goals? Is your rifle 30 pounds with a 50 power scope on it? How much precision are YOU and your system actually capable of taking advantage of? NRL and PRS shooters use a bunch of prefits and seem to be able to hit targets at long range. I'm not saying that NRL/PRS are as practical gear-wise as hunting but they're a hell of a lot closer than benchrest.

It seems like you're assuming that it's either the barrel manufacturer doing prefits or some summer intern at a no-name gun shop. Also, rifle builders can measure your action once (to make you feel better or to actually improve the process, your call) and then make prefits for it based on their measurements. So it doesn't even have to be sight-unseen if that makes you feel weird.

I hear you and glad there are some other Freebore options out there.
I have been the barrel makers floors and many of the people punching barrels are not smiths. They are trained but in no way shape or form would I call them gun smiths.

To your last statement. I am not assuming - I am merely sharing observations and thoughts to help someone make a choice on what they wanna run.

I like the prefit idea. I truly do for many reasons. My thing is I like having a relationship with a smith I trust better - knowing that the confidence I get from the expertise is worth the 400 bucks of work.

Spend 1000 or more and spend another 300 - 400 buying the gauges and all the tools - maybe and have a bbl that should work. No you theoretically dont have to buy the gauges and things - up to that person but if it dont shoot, do they know why? OR

Buy the bbl for 650 - spend 400 bucks having it done right by a smith I choose. Then if it dont shoot, I have a person to go triage, find the issue, and potentially correct it. That is my thing!

 

[JohnJohnson]

I have been the barrel makers floors and many of the people punching barrels are not smiths. They are trained but in no way shape or form would I call them gun smiths.

By "punching barrels" do you mean rifling them or doing other barrel work such as chambering? In every scenario I outlined (other than Proof prefits), the gunsmith is taking a rifled barrel blank and doing everything except the rifling themselves. And even if you have a gunsmith do things non-prefit, they're still starting out with the same rifled barrel blank as far as I'm aware.

I like the prefit idea. I truly do for many reasons. My thing is I like having a relationship with a smith I trust better - knowing that the confidence I get from the expertise is worth the 400 bucks of work.

In a world where that work didn't require my action to be sitting in their shop for 3-12 months I'd heartily agree and I doubt there would be much market for prefits. Prefits are an industry/market response to long lead times on barrel work, or at least that's what I view as the main driving force of people buying them.

Side Note: I went and looked, apparently Patriot Valley Arms will do a custom chamber with your reamer on their prefits for $50 extra. I imagine other gunsmiths would do similar. PVA also has options where you can pay $100 extra to have it in 2 weeks, or $200 extra for them to finish it in one week.

 

[Article 4]

By "punching barrels" do you mean rifling them or doing other barrel work such as chambering? In every scenario I outlined (other than Proof prefits), the gunsmith is taking a rifled barrel blank and doing everything except the rifling themselves. And even if you have a gunsmith do things non-prefit, they're still starting out with the same rifled barrel blank as far as I'm aware.

In a world where that work didn't require my action to be sitting in their shop for 3-12 months I'd heartily agree and I doubt there would be much market for prefits. Prefits are an industry/market response to long lead times on barrel work, or at least that's what I view as the main driving force of people buying them.

Side Note: I went and looked, apparently Patriot Valley Arms will do a custom chamber with your reamer on their prefits for $50 extra. I imagine other gunsmiths would do similar. PVA also has options where you can pay $100 extra to have it in 2 weeks, or $200 extra for them to finish it in one week.

I mean chambering. Punching the chamber

I also dislike that it can take months to get work done. Agree with the lead time issue and agree that a pre fit is a response to that.

How many of us wake up one morning and say to ourselves, "I need a new barrel next week - and if I dont have one I can go shooting or hunting." Or maybe I am being presumptous and it happens all the time.

Reduction in variables is why we hand load. It’s why we run ladders. It’s why we are so passionate about shooting well, its why we mole hole ourselves into deep trenches to gain every advantage possible through great equipment and great reloading. With that, If your chamber isn't perfect, and there is any variability in fit, nothing else good can come from the rifle no matter what else we do.

My thing will always be to take it to my smith and have it done. IMO it is the single most important way to reduce in the biggest variable that affects all the others which is proper chambering and fitment. Unless I wake up tomorrow and say "F, I need a barrel next week or I cannot shoot or hunt at all" Maybe ill order one -

 

[Article 4]

There are some crazy accurate prefits out there and there are some crazy accurate gunsmith chambered barrels. There are also plenty of garbage barrels out there from both sources.

Barrels are a little bit like picking a puppy out you can do all the homework in the world and sometimes you get one that just doesn’t hunt.

True

 

[JohnJohnson]

Asking for and getting the barrel curve @ 12:00 is not happening in pre fits.

I was looking around at various prefit suppliers and found mention of this at Bugholes so figured I'd let you know. If you want your prefits to have the barrel curve timed, you need to send your action in for measurements once. From that onwards he can make prefit barrels for you with the bore curvature timed.

 

[RobHazmat89]

I’ve only tried a few prefits. All were awesome. I have a prefit 6 cm proof on a tikka action. It shoots factory ammo wonderfully

Same, all of my proof prefits have been 0.5" or better.

 

[satchamo]

Gunsmiths are not everywhere so for alot of us this option is not only more costly but way more of a pain in the ass. Personally I’d rather take the chance of a POSSIBLY lesser accurate rifle than dick with shipping or driving and dealing with someone in the process… no hate on gunsmiths, the world needs them.

 

[Lawnboi]

My experience with gunsmiths is largely why I choose prefits.

When you only have a few actions, and you send your rifle off that’s supposed to be back in a month, and it takes a year, that’s a problem for me.

Both can make garbage. I learned the hard way that it’s not worth the price of the barrel to play games with gunsmiths and waste time and ammo either. Much easier to just screw on another in the basement and be up and running.

 

[JohnJohnson]

My first custom that I had a gunsmith do shot amazing but he undertorqued the barrel (found that out later) and did some weird variation of 5/8-24 threads that only the muzzle brake he makes could fit onto. I still have that rifle as my backup gun sitting around but it took about $400 to get the barrel chopped/rethreaded and headspace corrected down the line after the barrel was taken off and reinstalled from Cerakoting. Gunsmiths are not immune to screwups.

 

[Grundy53]

Looked this up and didnt see this discussed.

I am a fan of prefits, in certain applications. I am more of a fan of using a smith fit barrel the vase majority of the time. They both work but IMO and IME the smith fit barrel works better and is CONSISTENTLY more accurate.

Prefits work if

• you want to change it yourself and are willing to go with whatever reamer spec and bbl spec the bbl maker uses.
• Maybe you are short on time or dont have a good smith and wanna learn yourself. Great! Big fan of self sufficiency and learning as you go
• Wanna buy a bbl vise, maybe a torque wrench, and gauges and understand how to read a reamer spec sheet? Again, if you wanna learn great but are you sure?
• If you are good with a SAAMI chamber and a reamer that may or may not have been used five, eight, or maybe 12 times without replacement or ensuring it is still in spec, they get checked sure but not checked with your action
• If you are willing to go with any barrel that is chambered by "anyone" I an NOT casting dispersions here but at some point someone got trained on the process and is doing it on their own the first time....are we absolutely sure that the guaranteed .001 headspace is consistent with YOUR action in your bench at home?
• By the time you purchase gauges, you have spent the money to have a smith do it. Yes, you should use the gauges...safety first!!!

Personally, I will always use a smith built barrel process. Here is why:

• I can spec my own reamer or use a shop reamer to control specs and freebore
• Not every single action and prefit is ever going to be as exact as hand measuring and fitting. Too many hands, machines, and possible variations.
• Being able to run the same caliber and replacing barrels will be more likely and the results more consistent using a smith
• I can buy my own reamer and if I shoot one gun a lot, I can use it from bbl to bbl
• I know of not a single benchrest shooter, the guys that are interested in sub 1/4 MOA accuracy, use pre fits. That in itself is important for anyone trying to build the absolute most accurate rifle they can.

So if you wanna try it, all good. I think pre fits can work in a lot of ways. But what if it doesnt, are you good with going through the process of returning it, finding out why, or wasting the precious time needed to spin another one on and hope you get the right one.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnd go! LOL

Forget oranges. Comparing benchrest shooters to shooting for hunting applications is comparing apples to potatoes.

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[Article 4]

My experience with gunsmiths is largely why I choose prefits.

When you only have a few actions, and you send your rifle off that’s supposed to be back in a month, and it takes a year, that’s a problem for me.

Both can make garbage. I learned the hard way that it’s not worth the price of the barrel to play games with gunsmiths and waste time and ammo either. Much easier to just screw on another in the basement and be up and running.

My first custom that I had a gunsmith do shot amazing but he undertorqued the barrel (found that out later) and did some weird variation of 5/8-24 threads that only the muzzle brake he makes could fit onto. I still have that rifle as my backup gun sitting around but it took about $400 to get the barrel chopped/rethreaded and headspace corrected down the line after the barrel was taken off and reinstalled from Cerakoting. Gunsmiths are not immune to screwups.

I hear you both. Yeah garbage can come from anywhere and no one, or no company or process is immune. Prefits and smiths both.
Finding a good smith these days is tough...prefit guarantees make sense - I have a great smith and even do a ton of it myself. I KNOW my stuff is straight, true and within specs. Makes me feel very confident when I lay down behind the rifle.

 

[Fire_9]

What is the biggest variation to you in a prefit vs gunsmith installed barrel? What exactly are they custom fitting if the action has guaranteed headspace?

 

[willfrye027]

What is the biggest variation to you in a prefit vs gunsmith installed barrel? What exactly are they custom fitting if the action has guaranteed headspace?

Some/most prefits are not hand dialed for concentricity, chamber can be crooked. And your headspace can be off. Some prefits will be perfectly chambered.

Some smith barrels are not hand dialed for concentricity and the chamber can be crooked. And they might screw up your headspace anyways.

I think it’s more important to find out HOW the barrel is being chambered. Headspace is not as big of a deal IMO as we make it.

Caveat; I’m not a gunsmith this is just what I have been told/experienced/come to believe

 

[ID_Matt]

I only have experience with 1 prefit, it was short on headspace and the chamber was rough enough that it scratched brass. Ended up paying a gunsmith to fix it. Small sample of 1 and that was 5 or so years ago so I think things have improved since then.

If I had to drive a long ways or deal with mailing actions, I likely would do more prefits in the garage. The gunsmith I use is 10 minutes away and I trust him. If something isn't right that he did, he'll fix it. May cost an extra couple hundred bucks initially, but I know it'll be perfect and I won't ever be out an extra cost if something isn't right.

 

[Fire_9]

Some/most prefits are not hand dialed for concentricity, chamber can be crooked. And your headspace can be off. Some prefits will be perfectly chambered.

Some smith barrels are not hand dialed for concentricity and the chamber can be crooked. And they might screw up your headspace anyways.

I think it’s more important to find out HOW the barrel is being chambered. Headspace is not as big of a deal IMO as we make it.

Caveat; I’m not a gunsmith this is just what I have been told/experienced/come to believe

This what exactly what I was trying to get at. If a prefit is dialed in correctly, there shouldn't be any difference. I've even heard some gunsmiths say manual machines produce better barrels than CNC machines. I called BS and asked them how/why and it came down to "Well if dialed in correctly there shouldn't be any difference". I'm no gunsmith but I've turned a handful of barrels. It's not rocket science. Good things happen when everything dialed in

 

[willfrye027]

This what exactly what I was trying to get at. If a prefit is dialed in correctly, there shouldn't be any difference. I've even heard some gunsmiths say manual machines produce better barrels than CNC machines. I called BS and asked them how/why and it came down to "Well if dialed in correctly there shouldn't be any difference". I'm no gunsmith but I've turned a handful of barrels. It's not rocket science. Good things happen when everything dialed in

Yeah, that information can be kind of hard to find about a smith/prefit maker. Probably a good idea to pick up the phone and call. But with a premium blank and zero runout…it’s going to shoot doesn’t matter if it was CNC, prefit, or smith spinning it on.

 

[Mtnmilsurp]

I’m 3/3 successfully using shilen #2 and #3 contour pre-fits on old (built in 1898-1910) Swedish Mausers.

With the oldest I recently put 20 shots in 4 inches at 315 yards. Plenty good for hunting!

 

[Harvey_NW]

I've got a prefit from a barrel maker (I did send it in so they could time flutes and gauge it for me) that is easily my best shooting barrel. I also had a well known smith cut me a chamber .003" undersized at the web, and after I locked the bolt up first shot with a mild charge and sent it back to him, he told me "well it closed on my gauge, so I did my job". Which caused me to send it to another smith that measured the fired brass with a ball mic and instantly discovered the problem.

Regardless of smith cut or prefit, there is no such thing as a sub 1/4, or even 1/4 MOA, on demand barrel in existence. There are some benchrest rifles out there that have shot aggs of .2, but aggs are averaged. They also don't correlate POI of the groups, just size.

 

[wyosam]

I hear you and glad there are some other Freebore options out there.
I have been the barrel makers floors and many of the people punching barrels are not smiths. They are trained but in no way shape or form would I call them gun smiths.

To your last statement. I am not assuming - I am merely sharing observations and thoughts to help someone make a choice on what they wanna run.

I like the prefit idea. I truly do for many reasons. My thing is I like having a relationship with a smith I trust better - knowing that the confidence I get from the expertise is worth the 400 bucks of work.

Spend 1000 or more and spend another 300 - 400 buying the gauges and all the tools - maybe and have a bbl that should work. No you theoretically dont have to buy the gauges and things - up to that person but if it dont shoot, do they know why? OR

Buy the bbl for 650 - spend 400 bucks having it done right by a smith I choose. Then if it dont shoot, I have a person to go triage, find the issue, and potentially correct it. That is my thing!

Once you’ve bought the tools, that per barrel cost for prefits drops significantly. Gauges aren’t that expensive, and can be rented for cheap. I’ve bought prefits from a couple makers, most chambered for non-saami cartridges. Last was. 338-284, and specified which reamer they should use (they charge $75 or so for a reamer they don’t have in house). I had one cut to match dummy rounds I sent in, though I’ve found I prefer to rent a throating reamer and finish them by hand to where I want them. I’d love to buy blanks and have them fit to my actions, but I don’t want to wait a year, and don’t want to spend the money (and space) on a lathe to do them myself.


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