What's the Point

[Boudreaux]

I am not saying instinctive is the most accurate or the least, to each his own, merely that your definition is not correct.
Instinctive shooting is no different than throwing a football, baseball or shooting a hockey puck. You instinctively know the amount of force needed and the angle of release to hit your target, they like shooting involve no reference point. People tend to assume that because the bow and arrow are in your preferential vision that everyone uses it as some kind of reference when shooting. Simply not true.

Thanks,
Boswell

 

[Ryan Avery]

I've heard so many ways/advice on how to shoot a stickbow. There is NO wrong or right way. Only the best way for you. For instance, I'm a gap shooter but never calculate in yardage. I pull back and sight picture dictates where I 'aim' the arrow.

TBM, it seems you just want to argue??



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[Steve O]

Ahhhh, there is the TBM I was waiting for. Always the expert.

1. Ryan is absolutely correct. The only shot you take instinctively is your first one. Every single one after that is learn-ed and built from the first. Get a dictionary.

2. There is no way NOT to see your arrow or point when you are at full draw. Even YOUR mind can't dull itself down enough not to see a 32" arrow DIRECTLY in front of your eyes. Next time you are at full draw, wiggle the fingers of your draw hand. The one BEHIND your eyes...you see them.

3. Guys that think they are shooting instinctively are just gap shooting quickly. Your mind cannot ignore all the references right in front of your eyes. If you think you are cooler saying your shoot instinctive because you can't give you mind the credit it deserves, have at it.


4. If you really think you shoot "instinctively" go in a DARK shooting lane. NO back lighting whatsoever and shoot at a laser dot on the target at 20 yards. Your group might be 3' in diameter if you are lucky. It won't be a 3" TBM standard group...

Funny stuff from the ol' ham blaster. It won't be long now and some of the real gems will start flowing.

 

[Ryan Avery]

TBM, what method do you use to kill animals with?


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[bbell]

Thought I reckonized TBM as well. People have been using arrow points to aim as long as archery has been around. Nothing untraditional about it.

 

[Brendan]

TBM, what method do you use to kill animals with?


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I'm still waiting for him to post a picture of all his recent success... My offer to store, host and post pictures still stands.

 

[Boudreaux]

2. There is no way NOT to see your arrow or point when you are at full draw. Even YOUR mind can't dull itself down enough not to see a 32" arrow DIRECTLY in front of your eyes. Next time you are at full draw, wiggle the fingers of your draw hand. The one BEHIND your eyes...you see them.

3. Guys that think they are shooting instinctively are just gap shooting quickly. Your mind cannot ignore all the references right in front of your eyes. If you think you are cooler saying your shoot instinctive because you can't give you mind the credit it deserves, have at it.


4. If you really think you shoot "instinctively" go in a DARK shooting lane. NO back lighting whatsoever and shoot at a laser dot on the target at 20 yards. Your group might be 3' in diameter if you are lucky. It won't be a 3" TBM standard group...

The mind is a great thing, but its input devices (eyes) can easily trick it. When you focus on something, the target, everything else becomes blurred. Yes, it is there but but you mind can't focus on it. Google a TV show called brain games and watch at just how "focus" screws up what your brain thinks it sees.

It can be hard for gap shooters (because they look at their arrow or the gap) to not understand that some instinctive shooters can focus out there arrow and bow.

Someone showed this to me once, They told me to focus on the dot then close my eyes they would hand me a bow with a nocked arrow, to find my grip, open my eyes focused only on the dot draw and shoot. They did this to me three different times. After doing this three times they asked me what I seen different in each shot. I didn't see anything different, I shot 2 two different color bows and 3 different arrows (carbon, FMJ and traditional) and NEVER noticed it. How was this possible? Because I do not "see" the bow or the arrow. This same test with a gap shooter will typically see the difference in the arrow but never see the difference in the bow.

I grew up shooting lighting bugs at night in the cut hayfields in front of my house with a recurve for hours and hours each night. I shoot instinctively, the same what I throw a baseball and football or shoot basketball and a hockey puck. I don't see how people can understand thats how you throw a ball, but you put a bow in your hand and suddenly "instinctively" becomes black magic and not possible to be done with a bow and arrow.


I am not saying one way is better than another, shoot whatever makes you the most accurate. Just trying to help others understand and recognize that instinctive is a method of shooting that involves not referencing anything. The same process of throwing anything.

Thanks,
Boswell

 

[Steve O]

Boswell--I am glad your system is working for you. Good luck and all the best. I should know better than to get sucked into anything TBM posts.

Ryan, does this site have an "ignore" feature?

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

The first live animal I shot at using instintive was a coyote. I didn't have a clue where the arrow was going. Even though I shot good in the yard, it didn't translate to the in the field pressure shots. The first deer I killed left me wondering how the arrow into the deer...I didn't even remember shooting.

Nowadays I am pretty sure I can direct the arrow towards the target...the release has been the problem of late. I've made a lot of progress in that department and cannot wait to test my progress. Another 10 days of 12 hour shifts and game on for the next 2 months.

Last season I killed 6 or 7 deer with my recurve, but missed some slam dunk shots badly. My good shots were pretty good but my bad were awful. One of the awful was on a really nice public land buck.

If I can prove effective on our small deer that should give me the confidence to go for elk next fall.
It's tuff hitting deer no wider than a snakes back from 22 feet up. Hunt lower than that and it's tough getting shots.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

I shoot a compound with one pin they same way Ryan describes his method of gap shooting. I don't think about yardage..I see thedistance and the sight pic forms in my mind. It is an what I call instinctive gap shooting and uses a point of reference to keep you close. With the recurve I use no point of reference...it's just a feel thing with it and I can short draw and change anchor without damaging accuracy. I suspect gap shoot for with the arrow tip as a reference demands a consistent anchor where as instinctive does not.

When I calculated what is best or the best way to accomplish a task I don't figure in person defects. Fred Bear was a snap shooter, but he himself acknowledge that snap was not best...it was best for him because he could not stay calm in the center when holding longer. Snap became "best" because of a personal defect.

I try to find what is best and then attack the personal defects that hinder me from doing something the best way. It's not always possible and struggled with trad enough that I switch to a compound when I feel insufficient with trad.

My personal belief is trad instinctive is the most effective way to hunt...my personal defects don't change that. I will have to blast through those walls before I can prove this theory.

Sometimes trying to articulate your beliefs on an internet forum is like shooting a shotgun.. you take aim at a target without looking to see whatever else you might hit. As said before, I only wanted this to be for the people new to trad...to encourage them to give instinctive a try. There is so much more info on YouTube about gap and other methods and some impressive groups shown using these methods that many might not ever try the inst way. And as some might believe instinctive doesn't even exist. I should probably do an institutional video on instinctive shooting. Maybe I will start collecting some kill footage to support the project.

 

[Hawker]

Learn them all and use what works best for you. Don't draw an opinion until you have tried it. I have found that I blend a couple of different styles together. Manly because there is some very small differences between the styles and over time I tend to use whatever style is needed for the shot at that time.

 

[MAT]

I can shoot lights out most days instinctive (or gapstinctive as it may be) at targets but not so much live animals. The problem is animals don't have 10 rings, or spots to aim for as most are 1 color (deer). And every 3D target I've seen has some kind of blemish to aim at, so when I have a spot to aim at I'm good. Try staring at a blank wall and see how much your "aim" wanders around. Now put a spot on it and you see how much better you can stay focused. Using the fixed gap method gives me one point of reference (arrow tip) to force me to put it where I want to hit, basically making a spot where one didn't exist. The issue with instinctive is you have 2 variables, the spot you want to hit and your aim. There's nothing but trust involved which I think for a majority of people will always be in doubt. No one wants to experiment on animals to improve your trust in aiming by shooting them. 3D targets are a poor substitute as explained above.

 

[Kebler]

I have shot instinticve last few years done well on live animals. I have recently been experimenting with longer heavier arrows to reduce my point on to 25 yards.

it seems pretty dam effictve to hold point on at 25, a tad low 15-20 ish, a tad lower 0-15 and a tad high at 30.

i went from a 30" arrow (44lbs at my draw of 28") 433 grains to a 32" 525 grain arrow, no clue what my point on was at 433 high 30s I'd guess. I use to set my nock at 5/8, I was able to go up past 3/4 to help reduce point on.

im currently waiting on some black eagle shafts with the steel outserts I am Hopig to be able to use the outsert since it's shinny silver on a black shaft to be able to gap off.

 

[Whip1]

I started aiming or at least being aware of my point after I called in a six point bull to twelve yards. I picked a spot and cow called to stop him. When he stopped he turned into me a little and I lost my spot and all concentration. I was at full draw. I shot him in the nape of the neck. I saw him the next day and seemed fine but who knows if he made it through the winter. Never again will I not have the point of my arrow as something to aim with or fall back on if I loose my concentration.

 

[Brandon Pattison]

I like the first paragraph in the OP. I've never shot a sight on a trad bow but curious to see the effects. It'd have to been hinged for a cant though to match the angle of the dangle. A pin should be more accurate but now we're getting into a territory most trad guys don't like to venture. I too shoot compound and find it funny that he's been dubbed, TBM. Traditional Bowhunter Magazine touts anti-compound rhetoric all of the time to a point of disgust. Aren't we all hunters?


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[TurkeyBowMaster]

I don't think it bothers trad guys that compound guys outperform them near as much as it bothers compound guys when trad guys feel elite over their hard earned accomplishments. If hunting is what you like, then there is a lot more hunting involved with trad than with compound and significantly more with compound that rifle. I don't see how one can't feel better about the hunt when you have to get close. Just like I can't see why the guys who kill game at 500 plus yards can't feel great about the shot they made while utilizing skills they most of us don't even try to understand.

Anyhow I am going to be trad hunting over the next 5 weeks fairly hard on will post up the hunts on the wt threads. As one of the past best trad shooters in the world and recovering to guy, there should be some huge blood trails or lots off egg in the face. I should get test my medal on some pressure shots.

 

[TradLife406]

I shoot solely instinctively. That's why I shoot a stickbow. But I've got more things to worry about than how everyone else shoots. This isn't Archery Talk. For the most part we all get along and don't bash each other or what not like on Archery Talk or other forms. Let's keep it that way! I've only been shooting a struggle stick for five years or so and I've leared that everyone shoots differently. I was taught by an old timer whos dad was around in the Hill days. So I shoot Hill style. Some guys shoot crawl or gap shoot. And some losers (totally kidding) even shoot compounds. I could careless as long as they are having fun and being responsible.

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