What would cause a rifle to shoot this poorly?

[grfox92]

The rifle is a 1970s Model 70 in .308. It was given to me by my brother in law. It was purchased by his grandfather in the 70s and put in a gun safe and it stayed there ever since. When he gave it to me it was clearly a brand new gun, immaculate wood stock, sparkling clean bolt head ect.

I was new to rifles when I got it and sighted it in with 150g CoreLokts which I shot 3" ish groups at 200 yards which was my limit for shooting animals anyway. So "good enough". I assumed it was me as a new shooter causing bigger groups.

I got a can of Lake city mil surplus stuff and over the course of the last few years shot it a bunch with pretty big groups 4-5" between 100 and 200 yards, I assumed it was the bulk ammo and kept shooting.

Fast forward to this year post season I decided to buy some better ammo and focus on shooting good groups and see what the gun likes.

I shot 6 different types of ammo out of the gun, Hornaday SST 150 and 180 grain, Spear HCSP 150, Hornaday Interloc, Winchester PowerPoint, and lake city bulk stuff. The gun shot anywhere from 3 to 5 inches at 100 yards with all of these. A lot of them would have 2 tight and 1 flyer. Some were just all over the place. I attached pics below as an example.

I tore the whole gun down, cleaned everything, re mounted and torqued the bases and mounted a different scope and wound up with the exact same accuracy.

My next step is to tear the gun back down and use copper remover in the barrel, and re assemble with yet a 3rd scope and try one last time.

I've attached pictures of some of the groups for reference.

Also wanted to point out that I have shot different rifles, including a .270 with more recoil and shot 1.5 to 1.25 moa with cheap Federal blue box, so I don't feel it's my shooting causing the issue.

Any insight is appreciated.

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[allstajacket]

The rifle is a 1970s Model 70 in .308. It was given to me by my brother in law. It was purchased by his grandfather in the 70s and put in a gun safe and it stayed there ever since. When he gave it to me it was clearly a brand new gun, immaculate wood stock, sparkling clean bolt head ect.

I was new to rifles when I got it and sighted it in with 150g CoreLokts which I shot 3" ish groups at 200 yards which was my limit for shooting animals anyway. So "good enough". I assumed it was me as a new shooter causing bigger groups.

I got a can of Lake city mil surplus stuff and over the course of the last few years shot it a bunch with pretty big groups 4-5" between 100 and 200 yards, I assumed it was the bulk ammo and kept shooting.

Fast forward to this year post season I decided to buy some better ammo and focus on shooting good groups and see what the gun likes.

I shot 6 different types of ammo out of the gun, Hornaday SST 150 and 180 grain, Spear HCSP 150, Hornaday Interloc, Winchester PowerPoint, and lake city bulk stuff. The gun shot anywhere from 3 to 5 inches at 100 yards with all of these. A lot of them would have 2 tight and 1 flyer. Some were just all over the place. I attached pics below as an example.

I tore the whole gun down, cleaned everything, re mounted and torqued the bases and mounted a different scope and wound up with the exact same accuracy.

My next step is to tear the gun back down and use copper remover in the barrel, and re assemble with yet a 3rd scope and try one last time.

I've attached pictures of some of the groups for reference.

Also wanted to point out that I have shot different rifles, including a .270 with more recoil and shot 1.5 to 1.25 moa with cheap Federal blue box, so I don't feel it's my shooting causing the issue.

Any insight is appreciated.

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Could it have a lighter or thinner barrel and you just aren’t letting it cool between shots? Hunting rifle barrels tend to heat up after just a couple shots that can cause horrible groups. I typically wait a few minutes between shots, and 10+ minutes between groups, and that is on a cold day.


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[Old-Cat]

Bedding maybe? Those old wood stocks can have pinch points.

 

[grfox92]

Could it have a lighter or thinner barrel and you just aren’t letting it cool between shots? Hunting rifle barrels tend to heat up after just a couple shots that can cause horrible groups. I typically wait a few minutes between shots, and 10+ minutes between groups, and that is on a cold day.


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I thought it was on the thicker side. Even my first 3 shot groups are all over the place.

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[83cj-7]

Bedding isn’t gonna fix that. In my opinion groups that big with various ammo types can’t be made to shoot MOA. I’d take this to a gunsmith and either have the barrel replaced or set back and re-chambered. Don’t let anyone tell you it could be the crown either, that’s not gonna cause those kind of groups.

 

[allstajacket]

I thought it was on the thicker side. Even my first 3 shot groups are all over the place.

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Hmm idk then. How many rounds have been put through the rifle? How does the rifling look? Maybe have a gunsmith check it out?


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[grfox92]

Bedding maybe? Those old wood stocks can have pinch points.

I had planned to bed this gun just because. If there was a decent aftermarket for M70s I would have bought a different stock.

I actually have a different thread about bedding this rifle, but in between then and now I started my own business and had zero time to mess with anything. I'm just now getting some time back and messing with things again.

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[grfox92]

Hmm idk then. How many rounds have been put through the rifle? How does the rifling look? Maybe have a gunsmith check it out?


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Around 300 rounds through the gun. Maybe less.

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[allstajacket]

Yeah I’d take it to a gunsmith. Have them check the chamber, barrel, everything.


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[Pharmseller]

Change one thing at a time.

I would get it bedded first. Then report back.

On another note, why spend all this time and effort on this rifle? Does it have sentimental value? Can you move it down the road and buy something like a Tikka that will probably shoot great with no fuss?





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[35WhelenAI]

Question for the OP. Last time you did a copper cleaning, per se, did you get any blue on the patches when you were done? If there isn't copper blue, you can save some time and put it toward making sure there is not contact as the stock wraps around the side of the barrel. I don't see vertical stringing, however the shots disperse more horizontally to my eye. Take a dollar bill, slide it between the barrel and forend, slide it back and forth the length of the barrel to check for contact between barrel and stock.

Clean up the barrel channel if necessary and bed the recoil lug and rear tang of the action. It's cheap to do it yourself, then no harm no foul if it doesn't make a difference.

Bansner makes a stock for the M70

83cj-7, what makes it so you think it couldn't be the crown?

 

[wapitibob]

Nobody cleaned copper out of those guns back in the 70's. That's the first place I'd look.

 

[Antares]

That initial sight in (3” @ 200 with CoreLokts) is totally acceptable.

Have you tried the 150 CoreLokts again?

 

[HiMtnHntr]

That's pretty fair for the rifle in question and many a guy hunted with those kinds of groups and stacked up piles of critters.

However, various things could be done to decrease group size. Start with kinds of ammo. If you reload, even better. I have a few rifles that shoot sub moa with certain loads and those kinds of groups with others.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Nobody cleaned copper out of those guns back in the 70's. That's the first place I'd look.

He said it was clearly a new gun and hadn't been used.

 

[35WhelenAI]

To my mind, there should be some consistency in the groups. Even if it liked the 150 Core Lokt for instance, a new box in a new year is probably not the same load it was before with respect to the same powder or charge weight, could be different primers, bullets aren't the same batch, etc.

Check for any contact with a dollar bill between the barrel and stock along the barrel channel. Most of all, just bed it yourself and go from there. One thing at a time as was shared.

 

[Pickettpuncher]

He said it was clearly a new gun and hadn't been used.

He also said he shot a bunch of lake city thru it

 

[grfox92]

Change one thing at a time.

I would get it bedded first. Then report back.

On another note, why spend all this time and effort on this rifle? Does it have sentimental value? Can you move it down the road and buy something like a Tikka that will probably shoot great with no fuss?





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No sentimental value. I'm putting time into it because I always thought m70s were premium guns and would shoot at least MOA. I thought about selling it in the past and putting the money towards a Tikka. I wish I had. Now with how poorly it shoots I feel it would be wrong to sell it. Maybe I'm off base on that thought process. There's a shop right down the road I could sell it too tomorrow.

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[grfox92]

Question for the OP. Last time you did a copper cleaning, per se, did you get any blue on the patches when you were done? If there isn't copper blue, you can save some time and put it toward making sure there is not contact as the stock wraps around the side of the barrel. I don't see vertical stringing, however the shots disperse more horizontally to my eye. Take a dollar bill, slide it between the barrel and forend, slide it back and forth the length of the barrel to check for contact between barrel and stock.

Clean up the barrel channel if necessary and bed the recoil lug and rear tang of the action. It's cheap to do it yourself, then no harm no foul if it doesn't make a difference.

Bansner makes a stock for the M70

83cj-7, what makes it so you think it couldn't be the crown?

I didn't copper clean, just regular cleaner with patches. I didn't suspect copper fouling after 300 rounds.

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[grfox92]

That initial sight in (3” @ 200 with CoreLokts) is totally acceptable.

Have you tried the 150 CoreLokts again?

Yes they shoot the same. 2 tight with 1 big flyer. With corelocts I had a 3 shot group with 2 almost touching and one 8" low.

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