What do you think about the weird behaviour of my custom rifle?

[ssimo]

the word is askhole

As you can see now that people started actually helping me we are maybe getting to some diagnosis. Everyone is being polite and mature.
When people randomly attack you and make assumptions and provocate, maybe someone like me can give a harsh reply, then being called an as**ole etc. The reality is that, keeping the conversation polite it can be more constructive and less toxic.

Se semini vento raccogli tempesta

And then everything goes to s**t. Don’t do this please, don’t be rude

 

[ssimo]

Watch this video. A lot of Phil's stuff is PRS specific but this video can help you with the principals of how you should be on the gun, and how you shouldn't be.

Applying a lot of pressure through a cheek weld will absolutely affect point of impact and your ability to spot impacts.

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Thanks man, what do you think about drop heel of that manners eh4 of my pics?

 

[7LRM]

Barely just like women, we never know the answers.

 

[PopNFresh]

the word is askhole, it's when a person has already made up their mind on the question they want to ask before asking it then proceed to disagree and refuse to persue any feedback that doesn't agree with their already predetermined problem/solution

 

[ssimo]

the word is askhole, it's when a person has already made up their mind on the question they want to ask before asking it then proceed to disagree and refuse to persue any feedback that doesn't agree with their already predetermined problem/solution

You didn’t read all
The thread apparently. It was very informative for me and i started with the suspicion that the problem lied in an intrinsical issue with the rifle being too sensitive and now i think the problem lies in my choice of the stock and in how the rifle is held.. it seems like the ask hole was open to suggestions at the end.. not open to personal attack and provocations, that’s another story

But it’s ok, call me an askhole, as you wish

Can we move on now?

 

[PopNFresh]

I never called you anything, I responded to someone else who was commenting on a behavior he sees regularly of the internet.
you presumed the rest.

 

[ssimo]

I never called you anything, I responded to someone else who was commenting on a behavior he sees regularly of the internet.
you presumed the rest.

After 7 pages of provocations presuming that is pretty obvious, but that’s ok, i couldn’t care less. I just want to stick to the topic and move on

This is very important to me since hunting is my main passion and this rifl was a big investment for me

 

[Formidilosus]

i am a bit confused because many say that it is better to have a chin weld instead of a cheek weld, thus influencing less the recoil dynamic of the rifle.. so maybe i don't have a too light of a chin weld but an inconsistent one? but this way if i shoot uphill or with the bipod canted how can i "direct/control" the dynamics of recoil?

The chin weld/nearly free recoil/“heads up” deal is a tripod and barricade driven (with a bit of nonsense “tactical” history thrown in) thing. It utterly falls apart when actually measured in dynamic and unconventional shooting.

Anything that requires control benefits from more contact. More contact= more friction= more control.

It is quite possible to get a full cheek weld and shoot a gun neutrally.

The pic with the olive camp t shirt is the one with the higher home Made cheekpad, the one with the woodlamd camo shirt is the standard configuration.. the other one is the only pic i have of the complete rifle on this phone and it was the homemade rende ring i did when i was doing the project before ordering the rifle!

Maybe the Montecarlo stock ends up too low against my “shoulder” thus making the rifle jump more?

That stock is awful. It absolutely reveals any flaws or errors in your position, body, contact, or anticipation. It is not your full issue, but it is making everything worse.

 

[Formidilosus]

Applying a lot of pressure through a cheek weld will absolutely affect point of impact and your ability to spot impacts.

It doesn’t though. Or doesn’t have to. I can have you put your hand over the comb, smash my face in hard enough that it is painful for you, and yet the group doesn’t move, and I watch all the impacts. I’ve done this at multiple S2H course with the students.

Now- I’m not saying that anyone should be putting a ton of pressure into the cheek. I am saying, that face contact (especially with cheek fat) add a demonstrable level of friction, and keeps your head, body as one locked in unit with the rifle.

Simply- pressure does not have to mean torquing the gun. Putting torque into the gun is generally bad. Pressure ≠ torque.

 

[Formidilosus]

So for some reasons i was much more consistent with my old RIfles than with this one.

Having seen your rifle, it’s understandable.

But regarding the error introduction, if you shoot with legs of bipod extended vs gold ed or extended unevenly vs evenly of if you shoot with a great uphill angle vs flat, there will be some differences in how the rifle recoils, right?

Yes by itself. However, the answer there is “don’t do that”. You can learn to build a neutral position very quickly on any terrain, and from any rest.

Even with a very skilled shooter, this could shift POI? If so, by how much?

If the person is competent, it will not shift POI.

And do you think the amount of shift i observed could be mostly related to a too low cheek weld?

It’s related to poor fundamentals (I’m not being rude), a very poorly designed stock, and just enough recoil to exploit both.

If I close my eyes, rest naturally on the stock, and open them, i am a good cm below the right height to get a full sight picture. Could this be the reason why with this rifle i am less consistent than with my older ones?

It will hurt you, yes. The first thing is to get a better designed stock. Barring that, build a cheekpiece with foam and duct tape.

And could only this explain the amount of shift i am descrivono? (Up to 2 MOA for example when shooting 20 Degrees uphill with the rear bag horizontal instead of vertical?

All of it combined can amount to a lot more than 2 MOA shifts. Just the stock alone is hurting you severely- the top of the recoil pad is very low in you “pocket”- you are functionally on top of the rifle; and if you think about the rifle moving back and up during recoil- which way does the muzzle move?

 

[Dobermann]

I have an X Bolt 7mm08 that shoots just OK at paper. However I have first round impacts on MOA size steel out to 910 yards consistently. So I hardly ever shoot it at paper unless to re zero or check a load. I killed a mile deer DRT at 648 this year.

I hate those rifles that just won't shoot well at paper ...

 

[ssimo]

Having seen your rifle, it’s understandable.





Yes by itself. However, the answer there is “don’t do that”. You can learn to build a neutral position very quickly on any terrain, and from any rest.





If the person is competent, it will not shift POI.






It’s related to poor fundamentals (I’m not being rude), a very poorly designed stock, and just enough recoil to exploit both.






It will hurt you, yes. The first thing is to get a better designed stock. Barring that, build a cheekpiece with foam and duct tape.




All of it combined can amount to a lot more than 2 MOA shifts. Just the stock alone is hurting you severely- the top of the recoil pad is very low in you “pocket”- you are functionally on top of the rifle; and if you think about the rifle moving back and up during recoil- which way does the muzzle move?

I can see you don’t want to be rude, no worries. Actually with this rifle enhancing any mistake i learned a lot. But still something was off, i was sure about that. Inconsciously i always tried to have the rifle recoil back in a straight Line and, the only time it didn’t happen while hunting with my old rifle, i felt it and was worried about the shot placement (which at the end resulted perfect at 220 meters). But i noticed it. with this rifle this happened with every single shot, i was not confident at all for the brief period I tried to make it work. And the exceptional accuracy of which it is ingerently capable was making everything more confusing. That’s why i manager to get decent (not acceptable) consistency only when i was shooting a lot with it at the range and everything fell apart when i got back behind it after a few months of not using it. I was used to RIfles being very consistent: a sub MOA rifle remained sub MOA in most realistic conditions with the same load, this one just wasn’t. For sure i have to work on fundamentals, everyone keep son learning assuming he is open to it, but this rifle behaved too unpredictably and it is extremely sensitive to anything changing. So i will buy another rifle or stock and move on, keeping in mind the lesson learned: ditch the freaking manners eh4 and pay more attention to ergonomics. I was wrong on this, i thought ergonomics were mostly for comfort, i didn’t think they could impact shooting that much. That’s a big lesson, at a high price.

Very good news btw, we finally sorted it out! I knew there was something wrong.

So why manners designa this stock like this? With also a flat bottom as if it was ideal for precision shooting?

My smith should have told me during project development since i specified clearly type of applications for this rifle and the scope i wanted to mount on top of it.

This explains also why the bipod and rear bag sitting position was by far the most reliable and consistent while the prone one was the most affected.

This explains everything. As i said in another post, you never stop learning.

Edit: Stock is a manners mcs-t, not a eh4 like i started before (mcs t has more drop to heel and my scope is 4.5 cm above the center of the bore)

 

[grfox92]

It doesn’t though. Or doesn’t have to. I can have you put your hand over the comb, smash my face in hard enough that it is painful for you, and yet the group doesn’t move, and I watch all the impacts. I’ve done this at multiple S2H course with the students.

Now- I’m not saying that anyone should be putting a ton of pressure into the cheek. I am saying, that face contact (especially with cheek fat) add a demonstrable level of friction, and keeps your head, body as one locked in unit with the rifle.

Simply- pressure does not have to mean torquing the gun. Putting torque into the gun is generally bad. Pressure ≠ torque.

Ok I agree with what you are saying and should have specified that unnecessary and improperly applied pressure can cause an issue. Most people arent shooting proper fundamentals to begin with and fudlore has people believing that they should be smashing their face into the comb in excess.

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[RockAndSage]

Most people arent shooting proper fundamentals to begin with and fudlore has people believing that they should be smashing their face into the comb in excess.

The fuddlore that screwed me up was the exact opposite - have as little contact with the rifle as possible, let it free recoil so don't push your shoulder into it, etc. It was total BS, that I've come to learn likely came out of benchrest and other types of competitions that bear little relevance to field realities and hunting.

And that fuddlore was also the exact opposite of my experience with shooting carbines fast under 300yds.

Which, essentially, is more analogous to shooting handguns fast and close, in that you more or less want as much contact with your hands gripping the pistol as possible, with consistent pressures, for the best recoil management. I roll my shoulder pocket forward to create a perpendicular surface, got the best recoil management with a firm cheek-weld and a stock with a butt 90-degree to bore (B5 sopmod enhanced is almost ideal for my face/shoulder), and pulling the gun into the shoulder with about 10lbs of pressure. The more I locked the gun in (without overdoing it), the more consistent my recoil management is. This is what I did for years, before experimenting for a year or two with bringing the butt closer to chest centerline, which I eventually realized just wasn't as good for me with what I needed the gun to do in the broadest range of field realities.

And for some reason, up until a month or two ago, I thought I was just ignorant in how precision rifle was shot, because I couldn't get the "little body contact" techniques to work. Until a couple of Q&As with Form in another post, where he essentially described precision rifle in the field having a lot of the same upper-body techniques I've been using for carbines for years. It was a head-slapper of a moment, but man did my precision shooting get a lot better, fast.