What do you think about the weird behaviour of my custom rifle?

[thinhorn_AK]

I agree and thank for the polite answer, since most of other users are attacking me for some reason..

That said, I agree. It is normal. But the question is: how much is it normal? I always shot while hunting from various positions and i have never observed this. I have never seen shots landing were i was not expecting, especially by 20 cm at 300 m. So since people seem to esclude the fact that the rifle can be intrinsecally more sensitive to positional changes, there is something wrong with the shooter-rifle interface

Maybe the comb height

Well of the gun dosent fir you, then it would be tough to shoot it consistently I’d think. That would be fairly easy to fix then I’d lean towards more real world practice rather than just going for tiny groups off a bench.

In real world situations you might be shooting from a position you aren’t familiar with or comfortable with and you’ll be under stress/pressure/excitement. I’d say if your gun is set off the bench then start using it like you will when hunting.

 

[The Guide]

Thanks for the answer Jay, so even if I make sure i eliminated the parallax error with the proper knob on the scope this issue remains? How so?

If I sight in a rifle for someone else, there will 100% be a different point of impact for them vs me even if the group size is the same. We do not all look through a rifle system the same way. If you only use a bench to sight in your rifle but never shoot in the field from that same position, your POI will be different between positions. With a well fitting gun the POI delta may be minor but with an poor fitting gun, the change in impact will be greater as the fitment and alignment between your eye and the reticle will change.

Jay

 

[ssimo]

From what I understand, the rifle's accuracy is acceptable until you change the shooting position, use a different rifle support system, or shoot at angles. Is that correct?

Yes it is actually very good accuracy until ANYTHING changes, then everything goes to s..t rapidly. Especially i am seeing significant shifts of poi even of the groups remain decent. With the backpack groups are not decent at all and i am used to shoot off a pack, i did it for many years..

 

[ssimo]

Well of the gun dosent fir you, then it would be tough to shoot it consistently I’d think. That would be fairly easy to fix then I’d lean towards more real world practice rather than just going for tiny groups off a bench.

In real world situations you might be shooting from a position you aren’t familiar with or comfortable with and you’ll be under stress/pressure/excitement. I’d say if your gun is set off the bench then start using it like you will when hunting.

That’s a great advice, i actually never had the need to do small groups at the range of not for testing rifle/load and for occasional training (but in this case i shoot steel more than paper). I don’t enjoy it at all.

I never did expensive tests in the field because results were consistent, now it’s time to do them, after putting a cheek riser maybe

 

[ssimo]

If I sight in a rifle for someone else, there will 100% be a different point of impact for them vs me even if the group size is the same. We do not all look through a rifle system the same way. If you only use a bench to sight in your rifle but never shoot in the field from that same position, your POI will be different between positions. With a well fitting gun the POI delta may be minor but with an poor fitting gun, the change in impact will be greater as the fitment and alignment between your eye and the reticle will change.

Jay

Thanks, that’s very useful. So this gun doesn’t fit me well, i even noticed it but i didn’t think this could make such a big difference. I thought we were talking of fraction of inches, not inches!

 

[thinhorn_AK]

That’s a great advice, i actually never had the need to do small groups at the range of not for testing rifle/load and for occasional training (but in this case i shoot steel more than paper). I don’t enjoy it at all.

I never did expensive tests in the field because results were consistent, now it’s time to do them, after putting a cheek riser maybe

If you can hit 4-8” steel plates at distances you plan to hunt at, from positions you’d likely hunt from then I wouldn’t worry about it.

A few years ago my moose hunting buddy met me at the range before heading out to hunt, he was like “why are you shootng from the bench? Your gun shoots now do some damn practice”. Now before moose season I just shoot steel plates off hand from 100-200yds. Unless I’m forgetting something, 100% of the shots I’ve taken on moose were off hand or seated off my knees, I’m glad o practice those shots even though I don’t do it as much as I should.

That same idea has paid off on other hunts too. And I think most guys would be better served actually practicing rather than just shooting paper. I’ve seen a friend miss a caribou at 250yds then go on to talk about how his gun shot 1” groups. Those small target groups are neat but they really only demonstrate what the gun can do, not necessarily what the shooter can do.

There was a thread a few years back and it gets bumped from time to time but it’s about practice rather than equipment acquisition, there was a printable target with 3 circles of different sizes and a prescribed drill that (I’m probably remembering wrong) had you shoot seated, off hand and prone.

For me, that shooting drill was very telling because I could shoot little groups for a bench but I’d miss paper at 100yds when not fully supported. I upped my actual practice with the guns I had and started being honest with myself about my skill.

I’m still no expert but switching the focus of what I was doing at the range has paid dividends over the past 5 or so years.

While I’m ranting on, I’ve seen first hand guys miss animals with super expensive guns and scopes because of a lack of real world practice. The first time I hinted aoudad, I saw a guy go home empty handed because he couldn’t make a 300yd shot off shooting sticks without rear rifle support. Sounds like an easy shot but doing it under pressure with zero practice on an animal that may or may not be sitting still adds to the challenge.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Thanks, that’s very useful. So this gun doesn’t fit me well, i even noticed it but i didn’t think this could make such a big difference. I thought we were talking of fraction of inches, not inches!

Consistency is the name of the game and if the gun dosent fit you, then it’s harder to stay consistent.

 

[huntnful]

What are you drinking? These two groups (escludono the higher shot which was after complete cleaning and was expected to go high) are much smaller than 1 MOA combined and, even then, yes, with this rifle i am inconsistent. Something i have never seen, that’s why i started this thread.

Secondly, mixing all the groups from the first 10 shots of any session considering the maximum distance from the center of the target AT THE RANGE, the dispersion of about 30 shots (including different ranges and two positions-prone and sitting with bipod and rear bag) never went over 1 MOA more or less. I did a visualization of that, let’s see if i find it

Here you go

So no, it didn’t go to 1.5 MOA after those two groups. And not even after other 6 or 7 groups like those. The problem is when the conditions change ( different rear or front support, shooting uphill etc)

The “8” & “9” are 1” apart. And you shot them both out between the two groups…. You’re part of the system. The gun might not be 1.5”, but you are. You’re living in a fairytale of picking and choosing and excuses. You arent consistent, so neither is your rifle.

 

[The Guide]

Thanks, that’s very useful. So this gun doesn’t fit me well, i even noticed it but i didn’t think this could make such a big difference. I thought we were talking of fraction of inches, not inches!

My wife is 5'2" and I'm 6'6". There have been times when she has shot groups 4 to 6 inches away from the the point of aim when she would shoot a rifle sighted in for me. Same point of aim but drastically different point of impact with the same mean group size. Once we recognized this happened, I found good loads for her and got the rifle on paper. She then shoots the rifle and sights it in for herself. We then do groups from the bench, from prone, and from other field positions to verify no POI shift. If we are getting shift we look at stock fitment, scope fitment, and other things to make it shoot better for her. Same for my son's rifles as he always shoots higher than POA by several inches vs my zero. My daughter shoots closer to my POI. We can easily share a gun w/o changing scope zero.

Jay

 

[Formidilosus]

If I sight in a rifle for someone else, there will 100% be a different point of impact for them vs me even if the group size is the same.

That means one or both of you is inputting torque and error into the gun. The gun doesn’t know what’s behind it, or close or far from the ground it is.

We do not all look through a rifle system the same way. If you only use a bench to sight in your rifle but never shoot in the field from that same position, your POI will be different between positions.

No. That means you are introducing error into the Sydney- again, the rifle doesn’t not know where it is in space. There should be no shift from prone, seated, kneeling, standing- unsupported or supported. If there is- it is you producing the error. Instead of excusing it, find out what the error is and eliminate it.

With a well fitting gun the POI delta may be minor but with a poor fitting gun, the change in impact will be greater as the fitment and alignment between your eye and the reticle will change.

Jay

If parallax is removed, it doesn’t matter what the alignment of your eye and reticle are- the center is the center.

 

[ssimo]

If you can hit 4-8” steel plates at distances you plan to hunt at, from positions you’d likely hunt from then I wouldn’t worry about it.

A few years ago my moose hunting buddy met me at the range before heading out to hunt, he was like “why are you shootng from the bench? Your gun shoots now do some damn practice”. Now before moose season I just shoot steel plates off hand from 100-200yds. Unless I’m forgetting something, 100% of the shots I’ve taken on moose were off hand or seated off my knees, I’m glad o practice those shots even though I don’t do it as much as I should.

That same idea has paid off on other hunts too. And I think most guys would be better served actually practicing rather than just shooting paper. I’ve seen a friend miss a caribou at 250yds then go on to talk about how his gun shot 1” groups. Those small target groups are neat but they really only demonstrate what the gun can do, not necessarily what the shooter can do.

There was a thread a few years back and it gets bumped from time to time but it’s about practice rather than equipment acquisition, there was a printable target with 3 circles of different sizes and a prescribed drill that (I’m probably remembering wrong) had you shoot seated, off hand and prone.

For me, that shooting drill was very telling because I could shoot little groups for a bench but I’d miss paper at 100yds when not fully supported. I upped my actual practice with the guns I had and started being honest with myself about my skill.

I’m still no expert but switching the focus of what I was doing at the range has paid dividends over the past 5 or so years.

While I’m ranting on, I’ve seen first hand guys miss animals with super expensive guns and scopes because of a lack of real world practice. The first time I hinted aoudad, I saw a guy go home empty handed because he couldn’t make a 300yd shot off shooting sticks without rear rifle support. Sounds like an easy shot but doing it under pressure with zero practice on an animal that may or may not be sitting still adds to the challenge.

In my country we are limited on this kind of training by law unfortunately but that was a very interesting comment to read.
The small roe deer that I hunt have a optimal target of around 4x4 inches tough! So my maximum distance i shoot them is around 350 meters (a little less than 400 yards). This rifle should be capable of it and it did many times but sometimes, when the position is not ideal, i get inconsistent results. I will try with a higher comb since this is the only thing i can feel is not ok with what I am doing (there are probably many others ahah)

 

[ssimo]

The “8” & “9” are 1” apart. And you shot them both out between the two groups…. You’re part of the system. The gun might not be 1.5”, but you are. You’re living in a fairytale of picking and choosing and excuses. You arent consistent, so neither is your rifle.

First, who cares of it is 1 MOA or 0.7. Second, i already wrote multiple times that the higher shot is not part of the group because it is a shot made right after deep cleaning with oil. I always foul the barrel before going hunting. Anyway, another thing i said many times, i have always been with any other rifle. If you don’t believe me on this, there is no point in talking because the problem is that with this gun i started noticing inconsistency for the first time after many years of hunting and shooting

This is the point of the whole thread.

 

[ssimo]

My wife is 5'2" and I'm 6'6". There have been times when she has shot groups 4 to 6 inches away from the the point of aim when she would shoot a rifle sighted in for me. Same point of aim but drastically different point of impact with the same mean group size. Once we recognized this happened, I found good loads for her and got the rifle on paper. She then shoots the rifle and sights it in for herself. We then do groups from the bench, from prone, and from other field positions to verify no POI shift. If we are getting shift we look at stock fitment, scope fitment, and other things to make it shoot better for her. Same for my son's rifles as he always shoots higher than POA by several inches vs my zero. My daughter shoots closer to my POI. We can easily share a gun w/o changing scope zero.

Jay

This is very good info, so this amount of variation is normal. This means that with my other RIfles the fitting was so good for some reason (luck) that i was much more consistent without knowing it.

A few more questions:
1) do you see this with more than one rifle?
2) have you ever experienced inconsistency in POI with one of your RIfles? What was the cause?
3) it happened that one rifle was shooting much more consistently with someone of your family than with someone else?

 

[ssimo]

That means one or both of you is inputting torque and error into the gun. The gun doesn’t know what’s behind it, or close or far from the ground it is.




No. That means you are introducing error into the Sydney- again, the rifle doesn’t not know where it is in space. There should be no shift from prone, seated, kneeling, standing- unsupported or supported. If there is- it is you producing the error. Instead of excusing it, find out what the error is and eliminate it.




If parallax is removed, it doesn’t matter what the alignment of your eye and reticle are- the center is the center.

A little bit of error introduction is unavoidable i imagine, so the question is: how much shooter error gives how much shift in POI?
could you try to describe this in your experience? Like some examples of when you see poi shift and for what reason?

 

[Formidilosus]

A little bit of error introduction is unavoidable.

That’s not true. People can learn to shoot neutrally.

i imagine, so the question is: how much shooter error gives how much shift in POI?

It takes very little to shift 1-2 MOA.

could you try to describe this in your experience? Like some examples of when you see poi shift and for what reason?

In myself or in others that are producing errors?

 

[ssimo]

That’s not true. People can learn to shoot neutrally.






It takes very little to shift 1-2 MOA.





In myself or in others that are producing errors.

So for some reasons i was much more consistent with my old RIfles than with this one.

But regarding the error introduction, if you shoot with legs of bipod extended vs gold ed or extended unevenly vs evenly of if you shoot with a great uphill angle vs flat, there will be some differences in how the rifle recoils, right?

Even with a very skilled shooter, this could shift POI? If so, by how much?

And do you think the amount of shift i observed could be mostly related to a too low cheek weld?

If I close my eyes, rest naturally on the stock, and open them, i am a good cm below the right height to get a full sight picture. Could this be the reason why with this rifle i am less consistent than with my older ones? And could only this explain the amount of shift i am descrivono? (Up to 2 MOA for example when shooting 20 Degrees uphill with the rear bag horizontal instead of vertical?

 

[wind gypsy]

For example if you hold your rifle very firmly and then very loosely, how much poi shift do you expect at 100 yards?

I dont think its so much of a how firm thing unless you're torquing it or have bad natural point of aim issues in which case the firmness might impact to what extent those issues change POI. EX: rifle on bags front and back pulling rifle straight back into your shoulder without torquing it, I wouldn't expect much/any difference if you're pulling it back with 8# of effort vs 3#. If you've got a bunch of cheek pressure that isnt consistent shot to shot, you're torquing the grip, pushing the fore-end a certain direction, etc, the rifle is going to move inconsistently when you pull the trigger and under recoil.

 

[ssimo]

It's more of a how you're holding it than a how tight thing. EX: rifle on bags front and back pulling rifle straight back into your shoulder, I wouldn't expect much difference if you're pulling it back with 8# of effort vs 1# if you're inducing a bunch of torque with how you're holding the rifle. If you've got a bunch of cheek pressure that isnt consistent shot to shot, you're torquing the grip, pushing the fore-end a certain direction, etc, the rifle is going to move inconsistently when you pull the trigger and under recoil.

Ok so, let’s see if I can give you a more accurate description. The amount of force i pull the rifle against the shoulder is pretty consistent, i do not put much torque with my shooting hand nor with the cheek. Trigger control is good (when i forget to take off the safety there is no movement of the reticle even if i go past the normal trigger weight, so there is no flinch). The main variable seem to be the amount of pressure i put with my cheek because it is not a natural cheekweld like it was with my older RIfles. Sometimes i find myself readjusting it between shots and surely i always have to move from my position between one shot and the next because of recoil disrupting my position a bit. One thing that didn’t happen with my older rifle. Another variable is for example if i keep the rear bag vertical vs horizontal (this alone shifts poi 1 inch high at 110 yards).

It seems like the shift in POI is directly dependant on the movement of the buttstock. Maybe a more consistent cheekweld could help stabilizzano the rear and make the system more stable despite variables?

I am sure that with my older rifle the chinweld was stronger than with this one, like if I had more control over the older rifle, with me actively controlling it, and with this one i feel less in control of the situation.

It is also true that with the older rifle I used to shoot holding the forend (it didnt have a bipod). Also trying holding the forend of this didn’t make things better. From the backpack this one just shoots much worse

Do you think the cheekweld could be the issue?

 

[wind gypsy]

Ok so, let’s see if I can give you a more accurate description. The amount of force i pull the rifle against the shoulder is pretty consistent, i do not put much torque with my shooting hand nor with the cheek. Trigger control is good (when i forget to take off the safety there is no movement of the reticle even if i go past the normal trigger weight, so there is no flinch). The main variable seem to be the amount of pressure i put with my cheek because it is not a natural cheekweld like it was with my older RIfles. Sometimes i find myself readjusting it between shots and surely i always have to move from my position between one shot and the next because of recoil disrupting my position a bit. One thing that didn’t happen with my older rifle. Another variable is for example if i keep the rear bag vertical vs horizontal (this alone shifts poi 1 inch high at 110 yards).

It seems like the shift in POI is directly dependant on the movement of the buttstock. Maybe a more consistent cheekweld could help stabilizzano the rear and make the system more stable despite variables?

I am sure that with my older rifle the chinweld was stronger than with this one, like if I had more control over the older rifle, with me actively controlling it, and with this one i feel less in control of the situation.

It is also true that with the older rifle I used to shoot holding the forend (it didnt have a bipod). Also trying holding the forend of this didn’t make things better. From the backpack this one just shoots much worse

Do you think the cheekweld could be the issue?

Yeah, cheek weld could definitely be a factor or the main one. If you have a lot of input in one position and next to none in another especially. I've gone to higher mounted scopes and hardly any contact on the comb. I think Form and others do differently so not saying it's the right or only way but I like the more upright head position and not worrying about height of comb much.

 

[grfox92]

If you can hit 4-8” steel plates at distances you plan to hunt at, from positions you’d likely hunt from then I wouldn’t worry about it.

A few years ago my moose hunting buddy met me at the range before heading out to hunt, he was like “why are you shootng from the bench? Your gun shoots now do some damn practice”. Now before moose season I just shoot steel plates off hand from 100-200yds. Unless I’m forgetting something, 100% of the shots I’ve taken on moose were off hand or seated off my knees, I’m glad o practice those shots even though I don’t do it as much as I should.

That same idea has paid off on other hunts too. And I think most guys would be better served actually practicing rather than just shooting paper. I’ve seen a friend miss a caribou at 250yds then go on to talk about how his gun shot 1” groups. Those small target groups are neat but they really only demonstrate what the gun can do, not necessarily what the shooter can do.

There was a thread a few years back and it gets bumped from time to time but it’s about practice rather than equipment acquisition, there was a printable target with 3 circles of different sizes and a prescribed drill that (I’m probably remembering wrong) had you shoot seated, off hand and prone.

For me, that shooting drill was very telling because I could shoot little groups for a bench but I’d miss paper at 100yds when not fully supported. I upped my actual practice with the guns I had and started being honest with myself about my skill.

I’m still no expert but switching the focus of what I was doing at the range has paid dividends over the past 5 or so years.

While I’m ranting on, I’ve seen first hand guys miss animals with super expensive guns and scopes because of a lack of real world practice. The first time I hinted aoudad, I saw a guy go home empty handed because he couldn’t make a 300yd shot off shooting sticks without rear rifle support. Sounds like an easy shot but doing it under pressure with zero practice on an animal that may or may not be sitting still adds to the challenge.

I have an X Bolt 7mm08 that shoots just OK at paper. However I have first round impacts on MOA size steel out to 910 yards consistently. So I hardly ever shoot it at paper unless to re zero or check a load. I killed a mile deer DRT at 648 this year.

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